Steel Challenge - Jan 15, 2022 BOD Minutes - Zack Jones Presentation

[Hoops]

Since I started this topic, I suppose I can act as moderator too (or not?).  In any event, my intent of starting this topic was to have a way for a group of SCSA shooters to communicate with Zack Jones who was recently given a seat at the BOD table as the newly appointed Steel Challenge Coordinator.  

 

Relative to Outer Limits, I believe we have enough comments from all points of view regarding (1) removing movement, (2) reviewing the current 4 sec penalty per string and, (3) dropping it completely from the current stages.  If possible, could we move on from this one stage?

 

Related to Outer Limits and Speed Option were suggestions that two additional (new) stages be added so that ranges with restricted bay sizes could shoot more than six stages.

 

Additional comments were made that SCSA would benefit by adding new stages, independant from the OL and SO comments.

 

Peak Times, specifically rimfire, were discussed.  From the BOD minutes, we know that USPSA/HQ intends to review Peak Times following the 2022 WSSC which is now completed.  Based on some of the fantastic low scores being shot some believe Peak Times would be reduced by 10%.  Other comments (me) offered basic statistical information that suggests Peak Times should not be reduced.  Since this will soon be a BOD item, I would hope to see more comments on this.

 

Classifications.  Not as much discussion as I thought there would be.  I have a few thoughts that I will post after this post.

 

A final observation.  Many more people read the posts than the few who comment.  I would encourage more readers to comment on thoughts they may have about SCSA that they would like for Zack to read.  

 

Thanks,  Hoops

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EarlKeese]

"Most are there just to beat their own performance."

Then why is the penalty such a problem for you? If the penalty is a given for those that can't/won't move, wouldn't there be the same opportunity to beat your own prior performance?

 

[motosapiens]

new controversy: introduce minimum pf for centerfire, so it actually has some relation to practical sports.

 

combine limited, prod and ss since capacity is not actually a thing and those divisions are sparsely populated. 

[Hoops]

6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

new controversy: introduce minimum pf for centerfire, so it actually has some relation to practical sports.

 

combine limited, prod and ss since capacity is not actually a thing and those divisions are sparsely populated. 

Would de-coker guns be at a disadvantage if combined?

[JTex99]

On 2/25/2022 at 7:00 PM, Umbrarian said:

 

You keep the stage and just eliminate the movement.

 

Yeah, make it like Showdown. 3 from one box and two from the other. 

[outerlimits]

16 hours ago, varminter22 said:

I'm confused.  

 

If removing OL movement made it boring, why are the other seven stages not boring?

 

believe it or not, there are some of us they actually enjoy outerlimits...and im 67.

[zzt]

41 minutes ago, Hoops said:

Would de-coker guns be at a disadvantage if combined?

 

Not really.  My Prod buddies tell me, they are faster double first, because they are used to it, and they are not used to disengaging the safety.  Most of them have had trigger work done.

[nso123]

3 hours ago, Hoops said:

Since I started this topic, I suppose I can act as moderator too (or not?).  In any event, my intent of starting this topic was to have a way for a group of SCSA shooters to communicate with Zack Jones who was recently given a seat at the BOD table as the newly appointed Steel Challenge Coordinator.  

 

Relative to Outer Limits, I believe we have enough comments from all points of view regarding (1) removing movement, (2) reviewing the current 4 sec penalty per string and, (3) dropping it completely from the current stages.  If possible, could we move on from this one stage?

 

Related to Outer Limits and Speed Option were suggestions that two additional (new) stages be added so that ranges with restricted bay sizes could shoot more than six stages.

 

Additional comments were made that SCSA would benefit by adding new stages, independant from the OL and SO comments.

 

Peak Times, specifically rimfire, were discussed.  From the BOD minutes, we know that USPSA/HQ intends to review Peak Times following the 2022 WSSC which is now completed.  Based on some of the fantastic low scores being shot some believe Peak Times would be reduced by 10%.  Other comments (me) offered basic statistical information that suggests Peak Times should not be reduced.  Since this will soon be a BOD item, I would hope to see more comments on this.

 

Classifications.  Not as much discussion as I thought there would be.  I have a few thoughts that I will post after this post.

 

A final observation.  Many more people read the posts than the few who comment.  I would encourage more readers to comment on thoughts they may have about SCSA that they would like for Zack to read.  

 

Thanks,  Hoops

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I tend to agree with you on the times possibly not needing to be reduced. I haven’t dug too deep, but at a glance what I see is maybe 20-25 people who account for all of the fastest times. Do we really need to move the times for everyone based on such a small number?  

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, Hoops said:

Would de-coker guns be at a disadvantage if combined?

i don’t think so, at least not at my level (m). i have a ton of experience comparing cz75 (hammer down) to 1911, and also comparing shadow 2 optic to sig legion with optic. no difference. a decocker instead of hammer down would be even LESS difference.

 

but seriously, no one good shoots anything seriously with a decocker anyway, so pretty much all 10 people in the combined division would start cocked and locked (or use striker guns).

[varminter22]

On 5/6/2022 at 11:10 AM, outerlimits said:

believe it or not, there are some of us they actually enjoy outerlimits...and im 67.

Oh, I'm confident of that.

 

But that wasn't the question. 

 

The question was:  "If removing OL movement made it boring, why are the other seven stages not boring?"

Edited May 8, 2022 by varminter22

[outerlimits]

56 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

Oh, I'm confident of that.

 

But that wasn't the question. 

 

The question was:  "If removing OL movement made it boring, why are the other seven stages not boring?"

The answer is, they are…

[varminter22]

The question was:  "If removing OL movement made it boring, why are the other seven stages not boring?"

 

2 hours ago, outerlimits said:

The answer is, they are…

 

And there you have it, folks!  

 

Seven out of the eight SCSA stages are boring (at least to some).  

 

So why not add movement to all stages?  (Which, by the way, I would oppose.)  

 

Or why not eliminate the movement in the ONE and ONLY stage?   (Which I think is the right thing to do.)  

[outerlimits]

23 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

The question was:  "If removing OL movement made it boring, why are the other seven stages not boring?"

 

 

And there you have it, folks!  

 

Seven out of the eight SCSA stages are boring (at least to some).  

 

So why not add movement to all stages?  (Which, by the way, I would oppose.)  

 

Or why not eliminate the movement in the ONE and ONLY stage?   (Which I think is the right thing to do.)  

Just leave it alone, kid.  Keep shooting yer rim fire and enjoy yourself.  Leave the stages to the center fire folks.

[varminter22]

10 hours ago, outerlimits said:

Just leave it alone, kid.  Keep shooting yer rim fire and enjoy yourself.  Leave the stages to the center fire folks.

You funny!

 

Rimfire is an afterthought.  Hell, SCSA is an afterthought.  

[JM_]

On 5/6/2022 at 12:40 PM, motosapiens said:

new controversy: introduce minimum pf for centerfire, so it actually has some relation to practical sports.

 

combine limited, prod and ss since capacity is not actually a thing and those divisions are sparsely populated. 

I've yet to hear anyone say 'I want there to be power factor in SCSA' I see no point to there being a power factor. Having no power factor is actually fair because the 'power factor' is how low you can go before the gun doesn't cycle. A lot of people actually enjoy shooting guns without power factor because it adds a new dynamic to the sport. Unlike power factor where everyone just shoots 5pf above and calls it good. Plus its a sport that involves more kids, having softer shooting guns helps them out a lot. You're more than welcome to shoot your USPSA loads.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

I've yet to hear anyone say 'I want there to be power factor in SCSA' I see no point to there being a power factor. Having no power factor is actually fair because the 'power factor' is how low you can go before the gun doesn't cycle. A lot of people actually enjoy shooting guns without power factor because it adds a new dynamic to the sport. Unlike power factor where everyone just shoots 5pf above and calls it good. Plus its a sport that involves more kids, having softer shooting guns helps them out a lot. You're more than welcome to shoot your USPSA loads.

I just said it. I see a point in that it's supposed to be a real shooting sport, not airsoft.

 

Kids and sissies already have the 22 divisions.

[zzt]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

You're more than welcome to shoot your USPSA loads.

 

LOL.  I did just that at my first SCSA match.  176 PF in an Open gun.  I never did that again.  Now I shoot 140 PF in a custom 1911 Open gun.

[outerlimits]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I just said it. I see a point in that it's supposed to be a real shooting sport, not airsoft.

 

Kids and sissies already have rifle divisions.

FIFY.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

I just said it. I see a point in that it's supposed to be a real shooting sport, not airsoft.

 

Kids and sissies already have the 22 divisions.

Nonetheless I don't think 99% of people care about power factor, so its a non-issue.

[Hoops]

Okay you men.  You've made your points.  The beauty of SCSA is you can shoot anything you shoot in USPSA, including major factor as long as the round is deemed safe.  So go for it.

 

For us non-kids and I suppose fall in the category of sissy..........I would like to get back to discussing any points about SCSA that will be coming up with the BOD...specifically peak times and perhaps classifications.  

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Nonetheless I don't think 99% of people care about power factor, so its a non-issue.

i don't see how we can postulate that percentage without taking a poll. At any rate, I'm going to suggest it to my AD as a way to make steel challenge more practical. It seems plausible to me that centerfire steel challenge would be more attractive to actual centerfire competitors if the requirements were similar to other sports, rather than favoring an entirely separate gun (or gun setup) and ammo.

[egd5]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I just said it. I see a point in that it's supposed to be a real shooting sport, not airsoft.

 

Kids and sissies already have the 22 divisions.

Sounds like you also think idpa is real world practice to be taken with the utmost reverence. Now THAT"S a real shooting sport....

[motosapiens]

30 minutes ago, egd5 said:

Sounds like you also think idpa is real world practice to be taken with the utmost reverence. Now THAT"S a real shooting sport....

not sure if srs.

[varminter22]

On 5/6/2022 at 10:40 AM, motosapiens said:

new controversy: introduce minimum pf for centerfire, so it actually has some relation to practical sports.

I could go for that.  

 

After all, there is the rimfire divisions for those that are recoil sensitive.  

[Nolan]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I just said it. I see a point in that it's supposed to be a real shooting sport, not airsoft.

 

Kids and sissies already have the 22 divisions.

 

5 hours ago, outerlimits said:

I just said it. I see a point in that it's supposed to be a real shooting sport, not airsoft.

 

Kids and sissies already have rifle divisions.

 

FIFY.

 

I just got my new PCC to run at 2 grs of N320 with a 90 grain bullet, so NO to power factor.

 

Only problem is, I'm already on the stop plate before the first bullet hits the first plate.

 

Nolan