Can a short OAL cause misfeeds?

[Blackstone45]

Hi guys, I know that having a OAL that is too long for the chamber of your gun can result in rounds not chambering/feeding. But can having an OAL that is too short (within reason) also affect chambering?

[RangerTrace]

What platform are you talking about, 1911?

[AHI]

Short quick answer.     Yes

 

A little more information and someone can actually help you.

[Blackstone45]

I'm running a CZ Shadow clone. Occasionally, a round will not fully chamber (the slide ends up about 3mm out of battery) and the round gets stuck pretty hard (I have to grab the slide with my left hand and "punch" the grip forwards in order to rack the round back out). When the round comes out, it looks like the case neck was the bit that got caught. I crimp to around 0.378" so I don't think that's the problem. The rounds plunk just fine.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Blackstone45

[RangerTrace]

Take your barrel out and plunk test your rounds.  The may be too long or you may have some Glock bulge keeping them from seating.  One other possibility is the case could be in front of the extractor rather than between the extractor and breach face.

[Blackstone45]

2 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Take your barrel out and plunk test your rounds.  The may be too long or you may have some Glock bulge keeping them from seating.  One other possibility is the case could be in front of the extractor rather than between the extractor and breach face.

The rounds are definitely not too long, hence why I asked if it was possible to load rounds too short for reliable feeding. Glock bulge is a possibility, so I proceeded to plunk 50 rounds that I had already loaded, and they were fine.

[RangerTrace]

1 hour ago, Blackstone45 said:

The rounds are definitely not too long, hence why I asked if it was possible to load rounds too short for reliable feeding. Glock bulge is a possibility, so I proceeded to plunk 50 rounds that I had already loaded, and they were fine.

Then maybe it's what INfinity described as push feeding, when the rim gets in from the extractor.  Seems short ammo was the culprit.

[Farmer]

I keep seeing on here where people are “crimping to .378” and whenever I check one of my loaded rounds before crimping it’s .378 or less and that’s at the mouth where it’s flared the most. How can you crimp and end up larger or the same size? Most of mine, in fact all of them run right at .376 even with thicker CBC brass and .356 bullets. I don’t get any scraping of coating and just a faint line on the bullets. With Fed brass and a jacketed .355 bullet it’ll run .375-.374. I guess what I’m saying is try and crimping them down a bit more and see what happens. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Farmer

[HesedTech]

14 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

The rounds are definitely not too long, hence why I asked if it was possible to load rounds too short for reliable feeding. Glock bulge is a possibility, so I proceeded to plunk 50 rounds that I had already loaded, and they were fine.

Are you checking every round after loading?
 

I learned very early in the reloading process every single round has to be checked, especially if one is using a Lee progressive press.

 

All my ammo, not just pistol, get a chamber check after reloading. Reliable chambering is essential. 
 

What length does, beside chamber OAL issues, to feeding is contribute to nose diving when coming from magazine. 

[Blackstone45]

25 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

Are you checking every round after loading?
 

I learned very early in the reloading process every single round has to be checked, especially if one is using a Lee progressive press.

 

All my ammo, not just pistol, get a chamber check after reloading. Reliable chambering is essential. 
 

What length does, beside chamber OAL issues, to feeding is contribute to nose diving when coming from magazine. 

I feel it's a bit much to be chamber checking every round, but perhaps for match rounds, it would give added reassurance.

 

Would nose diving be caused by a cartridge that's too long or too short?

[Sarge]

14 minutes ago, Blackstone45 said:

I feel it's a bit much to be chamber checking every round

I CHECK EVERY ROUND THAT COMES OFF MY PRESS

 

Would nose diving be caused by a cartridge that's too long or too short? 

PROBABLY FEED LIPS OUT OF ADJUSTMENT MORE THAN EITHER.

 

[dansedgli]

Unsure how it is possible to pass a plunk test then need to force it out like you describe. Are you sure you are plunk testing correctly? 

 

Short ammo doesn't feed in my shadow 2, the nose sometimes hits the top of the chamber and wont go in but it will always eject ok once its in there.

 

 

 

 

[Kletus]

1 hour ago, Blackstone45 said:

I feel it's a bit much to be chamber checking every round, but perhaps for match rounds, it would give added reassurance.

 

Would nose diving be caused by a cartridge that's too long or too short?

Buy a Hundo Case Gauge from the pro shop.  Every round I make gets run through the Hundo and then boxed in 100 rd boxes.  It's an essential part of the reloading process.  Any ammo issues show up quickly.  The most important part isn't the actual dimensions, but being able to easily see/feel all of the primers so that you see an upside down primer or the worst case, a primer that isn't seated all the way and will cause a slam fire.

 

It's so easy a 7 year old can do it:

 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Kletus

[Blackstone45]

1 hour ago, dansedgli said:

Unsure how it is possible to pass a plunk test then need to force it out like you describe. Are you sure you are plunk testing correctly? 

 

Short ammo doesn't feed in my shadow 2, the nose sometimes hits the top of the chamber and wont go in but it will always eject ok once its in there.

 

 

 

I only need to force it out when it doesn't fully chamber. That same round will plunk, spin and fall back out just fine. But for some reason, when it's being fed from a magazine, it hits the chamber at the wrong angle or something and won't fully chamber.

 

57 minutes ago, Kletus said:

Buy a Hundo Case Gauge from the pro shop.  Every round I make gets run through the Hundo and then boxed in 100 rd boxes.  It's an essential part of the reloading process.  Any ammo issues show up quickly.  The most important part isn't the actual dimensions, but being able to easily see/feel all of the primers so that you see an upside down primer or the worst case, a primer that isn't seated all the way and will cause a slam fire.

 

It's so easy a 7 year old can do it:

 

I do have a Hundo case gauge and all the rounds passed the gauge. Hence why my original question (which nobody seems to have read) was whether a round could be too short.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Blackstone45

[HesedTech]

4 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

I feel it's a bit much to be chamber checking every round, but perhaps for match rounds, it would give added reassurance.

 

Would nose diving be caused by a cartridge that's too long or too short?

Nope checking every round is not too much, that is if you want the ammo to not be the problem. While this is fun and a sport it is also competition. That means a failure to feed is lost time.  Practice like you compete.

I use a Hundo, however, I also chamber check during development with a new bullet to determine the maximum OAL needed. Then knowing the length use the Hundo to check for bulging and primer issues.

 

Yes a short OAL in some guns can contribute to nose dives, but as others point out the whole package needs to be tuned. 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by HesedTech

[AHI]

Do this load some ammo to the max overall length that will plunk. See if issue goes away.

[Kletus]

My apologies for misunderstanding.  I've seen plenty of jams due to short OAL in a 1911 platform, but nothing that actually jams the round into the chamber and results in a stuck round.  That would typically indicate that the bullet is loaded too long or the case is out of spec.  When you stated that it's too much trouble to check every round, I thought you were speaking in general vs. barrel checking each round.

 

If it plunks and passes the hundo (definitely re-check the rounds that stick), then it almost has to be a length or profile issue or there is some physical snag somewhere in the chamber (doubtful). 

The path I would go down:  1.  Does it run factory ammo fine?  If so... what is the length and profile of your ammo vs factory?.  2.  Follow AHI's advice and run some ammo at the max length that will plunk. 3.  Try a different profile bullet and see if it just doesn't like that profile.  A different profile bullet could be changing the feed angle just enough to bind.

[Chappytactical]

What type of projectiles? FMJ's? Polymer? Etc

[HesedTech]

On 2/13/2022 at 9:32 AM, Blackstone45 said:

Occasionally, a round will not fully chamber (the slide ends up about 3mm out of battery) and the round gets stuck pretty hard (I have to grab the slide with my left hand and "punch" the grip forwards in order to rack the round back out). When the round comes out, it looks like the case neck was the bit that got caught.

As people read this thread don't forget the issue is a stuck round, one which won't chamber completely.

 

If this is true it isn't a feed issue, it's a quality of reload problem. OAL, or a case bulge are the only two things which may cause this. Of course the chamber could be so fouled they get stuck, but I doubt that is the problem.

 

Answers to these questions may help sort it out:

1. Bullet profile, weight, and size, i.e. .355, .356, .357, .358.

2. Which brass manufacturer is getting stuck?

3. What reloading equipment/tools are you using? dies, press, etc.

 

As has been previously stated, a round which plunks shouldn't get stuck in the chamber.

 

Yes it's an adventure and challenge to perfect your reloading process.

[Farmer]

Is the chamber clean? I mean really clean? If you’ve been shooting lead there could be some lead blow back in the chamber causing   Some rounds that may have slightly thicker brass to stick. 

[Blackstone45]

2 hours ago, Chappytactical said:

What type of projectiles? FMJ's? Polymer? Etc

Polymer coated

 

1 minute ago, Farmer said:

Is the chamber clean? I mean really clean? If you’ve been shooting lead there could be some lead blow back in the chamber causing   Some rounds that may have slightly thicker brass to stick. 

It should be clean enough. The gun is relatively new (only 2000 rounds through it) so possibly still needs to be shot in?

 

49 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

As people read this thread don't forget the issue is a stuck round, one which won't chamber completely.

 

If this is true it isn't a feed issue, it's a quality of reload problem. OAL, or a case bulge are the only two things which may cause this. Of course the chamber could be so fouled they get stuck, but I doubt that is the problem.

 

Answers to these questions may help sort it out:

1. Bullet profile, weight, and size, i.e. .355, .356, .357, .358.

2. Which brass manufacturer is getting stuck?

3. What reloading equipment/tools are you using? dies, press, etc.

 

As has been previously stated, a round which plunks shouldn't get stuck in the chamber.

 

Yes it's an adventure and challenge to perfect your reloading process.

Case bulge (Glock?) is a possibility I suppose. Out of curiosity, if you slowly ride the slide forwards when chambering a round, is it common/expected for the round to fail to chamber? After all, the guns are designed to cycle quickly and violently. I've always been told to pull the slide back and let go, rather than easing the slide forwards for this very reason.

[HesedTech]

3 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

Case bulge (Glock?) is a possibility I suppose. Out of curiosity, if you slowly ride the slide forwards when chambering a round, is it common/expected for the round to fail to chamber?

The bulge is from the heavier bullets with a blunt OGIV (nose profile) being deeply seated in the brass. It bulges the lower part of the case, especially with CBC brass. Chambers have different tolerances amongst guns. My Tanfoglios are slightly larger than Glocks but have a shorter throat or rifle landing. I can load fatter but not longer for the TF than a Glock. My PSA 9mm PCC has the shortest and tightest chamber of anything I own.

 

Again, we load for the guns we shoot, and all rounds should easily and smoothly chamber and then drop out when tilted upside down. If you have to force or apply pressure to load or extract it then it is too tight and you need to work on your load.

 

If you peruse the forum most reloaders (if not all) use a sizing die which slightly undersizes the brass. A Lee "U" die and the stock Dillon dies are such. You will also notice most set the crimp, not by size, but by the mark it leaves on the bullet, which should be hardly noticeable.

 

Hope this helps, but you really should search the forum because all these things have been discussed many times over.

 

And no the round should never fail to chamber easily and a heavy recoil spring is not a fix for badly prepared and loaded rounds. 

 

[Blackstone45]

10 hours ago, HesedTech said:

The bulge is from the heavier bullets with a blunt OGIV (nose profile) being deeply seated in the brass. It bulges the lower part of the case, especially with CBC brass. Chambers have different tolerances amongst guns. My Tanfoglios are slightly larger than Glocks but have a shorter throat or rifle landing. I can load fatter but not longer for the TF than a Glock. My PSA 9mm PCC has the shortest and tightest chamber of anything I own.

 

Again, we load for the guns we shoot, and all rounds should easily and smoothly chamber and then drop out when tilted upside down. If you have to force or apply pressure to load or extract it then it is too tight and you need to work on your load.

 

If you peruse the forum most reloaders (if not all) use a sizing die which slightly undersizes the brass. A Lee "U" die and the stock Dillon dies are such. You will also notice most set the crimp, not by size, but by the mark it leaves on the bullet, which should be hardly noticeable.

 

Hope this helps, but you really should search the forum because all these things have been discussed many times over.

 

And no the round should never fail to chamber easily and a heavy recoil spring is not a fix for badly prepared and loaded rounds. 

 

I do use Dillon 9mm dies, and do have quite a pronounced coke-bottle effect. I'm loading with coated bullets that have a diameter of .356

[ddc]

 

So you are saying that if you take several of the rounds which got "stuck" when they were inserted, and then do the "plunk and rotate" test on them, they all pass successfully?

 

[HesedTech]

6 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

I do use Dillon 9mm dies, and do have quite a pronounced coke-bottle effect. I'm loading with coated bullets that have a diameter of .356

Good stuff.

 

147s and some 124s, depends on OGIV/profile, will bulge cases when inserted, especially at OALs less than 1.10". This is why all ammo has to be checked for reliability.

 

I personally in 147s have had the best results with the FP profile. They load and plunk at 1.14" in all my guns and feed great. 

Here's a picture of the Blue Bullet version:

 

 

 

I found .355 or .356 are my preferred sizes and most vendors sell this weight and profile.