Rules Question: DQ for high muzzle?

[bigdawgbeav]

I was speaking with a friend that was telling me about a club he frequents and they will (and have) DQ'd competitors for high-muzzle reloads, make ready, etc.  There were no AD's that sent one out of the range, they just pointed their muzzle a little too high. 

 

So I'm not sure where a DQ like this would fall under the rules.  Any one heard of this?  What rule would be cited for a high-muzzle?

[Boomstick303]

This sounds like a range rule the USPSA/IDPA club is trying to abide by.  If that is the case it should not be a DQ.   <--- This topic and opinions on how to handle holding USPSA/IDPA competitions at ranges like that, has been beaten like a dead horse.   

 

I would ask him if he knew if that was the case or not.  

 

You could feasibly break the 180 if the muzzle pointed straight up passed over the 180 above the shooters head, like point a gun up to navigate around a wall, I have seen happen with PCCs not pistols.  But there is no rule for "pointing the muzzle too high".

[TRUBL]

First I've heard of that in the US.......There are range in the rest of the world where you can actually see buildings a few hundred yards off the back berm and they have high muzzle DQ's. To the best of my knowledge, I know of no rule in Steel or USPSA for what you speak of. Technically, if they are an affiliated club they can't use 'home rules' with out permission from the BOD or President. Of course, I could be wrong.....but that is how I understood it back when I was very active in the sport.

[George Jones]

A DQ must be supported by a rule and there is no such rule.

If this is advertised as a USPSA match, the club is ignoring the rulebook and applying a "local rule" which is prohibited by:

3.3

Applicability of Rules

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline.

Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction.

Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express

written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

 

[bigdawgbeav]

After I posted I went back and double-checked the rule book and did see 3.3.  Now I have no idea if this range HAS that written consent or not.  But it's good to know that if they DQ for this local rule that it could be appealed in arbitration...

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

This sounds like a range rule the USPSA/IDPA club is trying to abide by.  If that is the case it should not be a DQ.   <--- This topic and opinions on how to handle holding USPSA/IDPA competitions at ranges like that, has been beaten like a dead horse.   

 

I would ask him if he knew if that was the case or not.  

 

You could feasibly break the 180 if the muzzle pointed straight up passed over the 180 above the shooters head, like point a gun up to navigate around a wall, I have seen happen with PCCs not pistols.  But there is no rule for "pointing the muzzle too high".

 

In IDPA they can have their own safety rules, the only catch is they need to tell you ahead of time. There is one IDPA club here that does that. USPSA on the other hand that same range you can point your muzzle over the berm. They do ask you to try not too, but they can't stop you either. 

 

It's worth being trying to train to not IMO, AD's over the berm in ranges surrounded by cities are much more likely to come back to bite you vs a range out in the middle of no where. 

[bigdawgbeav]

So as a follow up on this.  I spoke with the AD where this particular club is located and he stated that the "high muzzle" rule is a club rule and can be enforced but NOT as a DQ.  Basically if you are warned for a muzzle infraction and do it a 2nd time then you are banned from the club grounds for a month.  Since you are BANNED from the club you can't be DQ'd from the match, so you get a DNF.

 

Apparently there is a loophole in the rules...

[George Jones]

To clarify....

A DQ cannot be applied by anyone serving as match staff (RO/CRO/RM/MD).

A ban from that venue/range could be enforced by a member of the venue BOD (or BOD-authorized person) which would result in DNF for all remaining stages.

Unfortunately, some venues feel it necessary to impose such a restriction.  In most cases it is a result of rounds leaving a range located near habitated areas.

The best way to avoid these restrictions is to enforce the USPSA safety rules, specifically the restriction on fingers in the trigger guard.  Too many local club ROs do not position themselves properly or do not focus on the gun to see the violation or simply do not enforce it when they see it.  Warnings do not apply when the violation has already occurred. 

HTH

 

[bigdawgbeav]

19 hours ago, George Jones said:

To clarify....

A DQ cannot be applied by anyone serving as match staff (RO/CRO/RM/MD).

A ban from that venue/range could be enforced by a member of the venue BOD (or BOD-authorized person) which would result in DNF for all remaining stages.

Unfortunately, some venues feel it necessary to impose such a restriction.  In most cases it is a result of rounds leaving a range located near habitated areas.

The best way to avoid these restrictions is to enforce the USPSA safety rules, specifically the restriction on fingers in the trigger guard.  Too many local club ROs do not position themselves properly or do not focus on the gun to see the violation or simply do not enforce it when they see it.  Warnings do not apply when the violation has already occurred. 

HTH

 

Excellent clarification.  Thank you for this.  

[IHAVEGAS]

On 8/4/2021 at 9:46 AM, TRUBL said:

First I've heard of that in the US.......There are range in the rest of the world where you can actually see buildings a few hundred yards off the back berm and they have high muzzle DQ's.

 

Urban sprawl has made things dicey at 3 clubs in my local area. One club was able to fix safety issues by eliminating one bay, another finally won its lawsuit with a person that built a house near the range 20+ years after the range was built and then tried to sue it out of existence, another club scares me in that an a.d. during reload could shoot a passing car or one of the houses nearby. 

 

I will get slaughtered here for this, but anyone who has shot many USPSA matches has seen reload a.d.'s, I just don't think it is that difficult to learn to reload with the gun pointed in a safe direction. 

[George Jones]

It's not the muzzle that makes the gun go BANG!

It's the finger that needs training.

Just my personal opinion and no slaughtering necessary.

[Mcfoto]

I expected by now that someone from our neck of the woods (NW Oregon) would chime in but since they haven’t: we have a range here that has the “no muzzle over the berm” rule. When the range was built in the mid-20th century, it was in the boonies. Suburban growth has gifted them with neighbors and allegedly rounds have hit homes. For years, they ran an outlaw match because of the berm rule. Recently, they became sanctioned again. The compromise was the Range has their own ROs at each stage to specifically police the berm rule. If a shooter violates it, they are technically not DQed from the match but “evicted “ from the property.

[Zincwarrior]

On 8/4/2021 at 9:48 AM, George Jones said:

A DQ must be supported by a rule and there is no such rule.

If this is advertised as a USPSA match, the club is ignoring the rulebook and applying a "local rule" which is prohibited by:

3.3

Applicability of Rules

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline.

Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction.

Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express

written consent of the President of USPSA. All local rules allowed under these provisions will be documented at USPSA HQ.

 

Thats all well and good, but if the range bans your club the rulebook is worth less than nothing. I have had one range close because of errant rounds and another put its clubs "on notice" that if rounds go over the berm, that club is done. The perils of massive growth.

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, George Jones said:

It's not the muzzle that makes the gun go BANG!

It's the finger that needs training.

 

 

Or maybe sometimes the gunsmith  

 

 

[TRUBL]

On 8/10/2021 at 2:41 PM, Mcfoto said:

I expected by now that someone from our neck of the woods (NW Oregon) would chime in but since they haven’t: we have a range here that has the “no muzzle over the berm” rule. When the range was built in the mid-20th century, it was in the boonies. Suburban growth has gifted them with neighbors and allegedly rounds have hit homes. For years, they ran an outlaw match because of the berm rule. Recently, they became sanctioned again. The compromise was the Range has their own ROs at each stage to specifically police the berm rule. If a shooter violates it, they are technically not DQed from the match but “evicted “ from the property.

Defined as "Oregon Nice" 

 

[zzt]

None of the five clubs I shoot at have such a rule.  If they did I would obey it.  I make it a practice to never allow my muzzle to point over the berm, just in case.

 

One club had a development spring up behind the pistol bays.  They raised the berms, then built a steel barrier on top of that.  It is at least 50' high in total.  Additionally, they only use forward falling steel for fear of a ricochet.

 

Another club recently raised all their berms.  That's a good thing, because they are on a mountain top and anything that goes over the berm can go a long way.

 

Another club has a land fund.  Every new member contributes $300 to the fund in addition to dues.  Whenever a parcel of land near the club becomes available the club buys it.  They will buy it even if it is not contiguous, hoping anything in between will eventually be for sale.

 

One is a sporting and farmer's assoc.  They have super strict rules, because the township grew up around them and the Township officials are not sympathetic.  They reached a compromise on range times with super stiff penalties.  Any shot fired before or after causes the shooter to immediately lose his membership and is fined $1000 by the Township.  All the rifle ranges are covered with massive wood beams so there is no possibility of a round leaving the range.

 

The fifth club does exactly the same thing.  All rifle and pistol ranges are covered.

 

I think these approaches are safer and more desirable than a no over the berm muzzle rule.

[hornetx40]

On 8/9/2021 at 5:18 PM, George Jones said:

To clarify....

A DQ cannot be applied by anyone serving as match staff (RO/CRO/RM/MD).

A ban from that venue/range could be enforced by a member of the venue BOD (or BOD-authorized person) which would result in DNF for all remaining stages.

Unfortunately, some venues feel it necessary to impose such a restriction.  In most cases it is a result of rounds leaving a range located near habitated areas.

The best way to avoid these restrictions is to enforce the USPSA safety rules, specifically the restriction on fingers in the trigger guard.  Too many local club ROs do not position themselves properly or do not focus on the gun to see the violation or simply do not enforce it when they see it.  Warnings do not apply when the violation has already occurred. 

HTH

 

It sounds like you are saying they can enforce their own rules in violation of the USPSA rule 3.3. If a club doesn't wish to follow the sanctioned rules they should not be allowed to hold sanctioned matches.

[George Jones]

That is not what I said.

A USPSA club is an entity which conducts its matches at a venue/range.  Each has its own independent staff/management.