Trying a "new" platform in Production!

[HOGRIDER]

Started getting involved in a local USPSA sanctioned range, and I've developed a very strong interest in trying out Production Class!

 

Having been strictly dedicated to 9mm 1911/2011 platform, I've ordered a CZ Shadow 2 Orange as this platform has been dominating the 2020 USPSA National Production Equipment Survey!  I also had the opportunity to handle a couple of competitor's CZs.  A Shadow 2 OR and a S/A TacSport2.  And I have to say both of these pistols felt GREAT in my hands!  I was so impressed, I ordered the S2 Orange a couple of days later!

 

So now, I'll be starting that journey of developing a new load that shoots ACCURATELY from this new-to-me platform.  Referring to the same 2020 Equipment Survey, I see that 147g is the preferred bullet along with Titegroup and N320 coming in as #1 and #2 in powders used.  And Blue Bullets is the #1 Bullet Manufacturer.

 

I have long been a dedicated user of N320; however I do have several pounds of Titegroup.  Plus I have a huge stockpile of Zero 147g JHP and sufficient stock of coated 147g Acme FP-NLG lead.

 

As this is a completely new platform I'll be developing loads for, I would gladly welcome input from the experienced members here on what components I should seek, from my current stock, to allow me a direct path to developing an highly accurate load suitable for USPSA Production Class.

 

And, IIRC, the CZ platform usually requires a much shorter OAL as compared to the 2011 STI platform?

 

Thanks for listening to my long-winded request!

 

Best Regards,

 

Ben

[edison]

Keep decreasing OAL 'til the round plunks. Add powder 'til you make PF & check to see if your 147gr tumbles/keyhole. EZ.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Zero is a great choice if you want to run jacketed bullets. They let you load longer than most. 
 

[Darrell]

The Zero 147 JHP at 1.100 (3.2 gr Tightgroup) will work great in your CZ's, the Acme will have to be plunk tested. My Bayou/Brazos 147 TC's are loaded to 1.130. I shot the Nationals with a CZ Shadow years ago when only three of us used CZ's. Now to be competitive in Production the CZ platform dominates. I have the Accu-Shadow for production and use a TS orange for local PPC matches. This year I'm dedicating myself to Carry Optics Division and shooting a P320 X5 Legion, or a Shadow Systems DR920. I currently shoot the DR920 better. Good luck to you. Check out my spreadsheet on this forum and it may give you some help picking a load.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Darrell

[CocoBolo]

A plunk checker is almost useless with my CZ SP01 Shadow.   When I load any new "bullet" I pull the barrel out and make up a test round and drop it in the barrel, but the true test is getting it out!   When pulling it out if it resists at all that's a problem.  The ACME 125gr is a good example, I loaded 1,000's at 1.135 shot them in Glocks, my Carry gun Kahr PM9, PCC, Sig P226, etc.  I take the CZ to range and shoot a 100 work good.  I go to a match, and its all good till unload and show clear, I can't open the slide.  Not every round is like that that small variance in the bullet and the OAL made a few too snug, my barrel plunking said 1.130 would cure the issue.   ARMSCOR 125 FMJ,  no problem at 1.150.  By the way really like the Acme bullets, but my latest supply is Monkey Brass Bullets 125gr and those had to go to 1.120 for the CZ.  Like you I'm a fan of N320, but have a lot of WST and RedDot.

[Darrell]

2 hours ago, CocoBolo said:

A plunk checker is almost useless with my CZ SP01 Shadow.   When I load any new "bullet" I pull the barrel out and make up a test round and drop it in the barrel, but the true test is getting it out!   When pulling it out if it resists at all that's a problem.  The ACME 125gr is a good example, I loaded 1,000's at 1.135 shot them in Glocks, my Carry gun Kahr PM9, PCC, Sig P226, etc.  I take the CZ to range and shoot a 100 work good.  I go to a match, and its all good till unload and show clear, I can't open the slide.  Not every round is like that that small variance in the bullet and the OAL made a few too snug, my barrel plunking said 1.130 would cure the issue.   ARMSCOR 125 FMJ,  no problem at 1.150.  By the way really like the Acme bullets, but my latest supply is Monkey Brass Bullets 125gr and those had to go to 1.120 for the CZ.  Like you I'm a fan of N320, but have a lot of WST and RedDot.

I took cases for 9mm, .40, and .45 and drilled and tapped them to use the Hornady OAL tester. Works great the way I do it. I use my CZ barrels to test with because they have the shortest lead of all my guns, if my load is accurate in the CZ's they are accurate in the others. Once I find the OAL to rifling I back of .015 or so depending on bullet ogive and magazine and work up my charge in .2gr increments. Once I find the most accurate load I start working the OAL down in .010" increments to see if accuracy improves. That's how I came up with my accuracy loads. For matches I load to a 130-135 power factor.

[ddc]

What about getting the leade opened up a bit so "normal" OAL rounds will fit?

[CocoBolo]

44 minutes ago, ddc said:

What about getting the leade opened up a bit so "normal" OAL rounds will fit?

I actually have a 9 mm throat reamer, and have used it on my STI Open guns, I'm way more concerned with OAL on 9 major.  When you stuff 10grs of powder in a 9 mm case you can't make short bullets, and if you did it might not be wise.  FMJ and JHP's work at normal OAL in the CZ, its just the coated round nose that are fatter towards the point that need to be loaded short.  The CZ is very accurate and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[MemphisMechanic]

4 hours ago, ddc said:

What about getting the leade opened up a bit so "normal" OAL rounds will fit?

The shadow 2 has a hardened barrel which will destroy a conventional highspeed steel reamer before you make more than a few scratches in it.

 

I had a carbide reamer made to cut the barrels in my Walthers, and it’ll do a Gen5 Glock or CZ P09/P10/Shadow2. They’re hard as snot, though. Newer CZ barrels are a chore to cut, even with my carbide tooling.

 

Just wanted to warn anyone who might have been about to ruin a perfectly good reamer.  

Guns you can’t cut with a Brownells or Midway USA sourced reamer:

 

The CZs listed above.

All factory Glock barrels.

The entire S&W M&P line.

Springfield XDs.

All modern Walthers.

 

(Czechmates and SP-01/Shadow guns have a standard barrel steel and will cut just fine.)

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by MemphisMechanic

[HOGRIDER]

Thanks EVERYONE for the excellent feedback!

 

I feel confident that with my current inventory of "consumables", I can work up a nice shooting load.  Yes, I remember well the mention of CZs usually requiring shorter OALs to function correctly.  And I have "Wobbly's" Guide to Determining Max OAL bookmarked.

 

Of course, I always download a current copy of Darrell's excellent spreadsheet.

 

Again, thanks for all your comments!

 

[HOGRIDER]

Realizing the chambers are "short" on the CZs based on my reading, I decided to try Wobbly's "How To Determine Max OAL For A CZ Pistol."

 

Using new Zero 147g JFPs along with once fired Winchester brass, I made up 7 dummy loads to use, following the directions outlined in the referenced article above.  Results were:
#1:  1.159"
#2:  1.159"
#3:  1.163"
#4:  1.157"
#5:  1.158"
#6:  1.160"
#7:  1.158"
I threw out the highest and lowest measurements.  Total for the remaining 5 was 5.794" which averages out to 1.1558".  After subtracting the recommended 0.015", I've got 1.1438"; rounded up to 1.144".

 

For many years, VihtaVuori has used an OAL of 1.142" in many of their 9mm N300 series loads; particularly with the 147g Hornady XTP.  I have also used this OAL in many reloads with N320 for other platforms.  

 

Do these OAL numbers sound typical for the Shadow2 barrels?  Would those experienced with reloading this particular platform recommend I use 1.142" as a safe OAL, or should I drop down to 1.140" as a better standard?

 

I realize the RL1100 will yield some +/- variance's in my final product.

 

Thanks everyone for your feedback.  Sure helping me get started on the right track!

 

 

[rowdyb]

Depending on the ogive that can be a perfectly good oal for a 147gr bullet in a shadow 2. Those are typically numbers people would associate as "long" for a cz, but if you've developed them properly and observed how they feed and shoot then load what works in the gun and on target vs the forum.

[HOGRIDER]

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Depending on the ogive that can be a perfectly good oal for a 147gr bullet in a shadow 2. Those are typically numbers people would associate as "long" for a cz, but if you've developed them properly and observed how they feed and shoot then load what works in the gun and on target vs the forum.

Thanks for your feedback!

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

If they don’t rub the mag body at that length your good to go.

 

[ERush]

Memphis Mechanic. 

I'm in LR.

Really Need a S2 OR reamed for 147 BBI's. Already short oal. 1.09-1.10.

 

Can you help?

Ty

 

[jubi351]

@MemphisMechanic , this should help.

 

[MemphisMechanic]

On 4/29/2021 at 8:07 PM, jubi351 said:

@MemphisMechanic , this should help.

 

Glad you did that.  

 

His barrel just arrived.

[HOGRIDER]

On 4/14/2021 at 9:46 AM, Darrell said:

The Zero 147 JHP at 1.100 (3.2 gr Tightgroup) will work great in your CZ's, the Acme will have to be plunk tested. My Bayou/Brazos 147 TC's are loaded to 1.130. I shot the Nationals with a CZ Shadow years ago when only three of us used CZ's. Now to be competitive in Production the CZ platform dominates. I have the Accu-Shadow for production and use a TS orange for local PPC matches. This year I'm dedicating myself to Carry Optics Division and shooting a P320 X5 Legion, or a Shadow Systems DR920. I currently shoot the DR920 better. Good luck to you. Check out my spreadsheet on this forum and it may give you some help picking a load.

Darrell:

 

I think this group and a couple others are ready for the Ransom Rest!

 

[Darrell]

Great group.

 

[HOGRIDER]

3 minutes ago, Darrell said:

Great group.

 

Thanks Darrell!

 

I was totally surprised with this one as I was shooting off an inexpensive, plastic rest that wasn't very stable:

 

https://www.caldwellshooting.com/rests/shooting-rests/the-pistolero/562771.html#start=1

 

But, I'll take it as there were a few more that weren't far behind that one.  At least I've now got a good baseline!

 

CZ Reload: 3.5g N320, Round 1                    Digital Link
Zero 147g JHP, OAL=1.125"
Temperature: 55*
Pressure: 30.07
Bullet Weight: 147.0
Power Factor Average: 132
Power Factor Low: 129
Power Factor High: 133
Number of Shots: 10
Minimum: 880
Maximum: 908
Spread: 28
Average: 899
Standard Deviation: 8
# Velocity Ft/lbs Power Factor Date
10 894 260.85 131 5/6/21 3:14 PM
9 899 263.78 132 5/6/21 3:14 PM
8 900 264.37 132 5/6/21 3:13 PM
7 905 267.31 133 5/6/21 3:13 PM
6 905 267.31 133 5/6/21 3:13 PM
5 880 252.75 129 5/6/21 3:13 PM
4 908 269.09 133 5/6/21 3:12 PM
3 896 262.02 131 5/6/21 3:12 PM
2 898 263.19 132 5/6/21 3:12 PM
1 906 267.90 133 5/6/21 3:11 PM

[SteelCityShooter]

On 4/14/2021 at 10:11 AM, CocoBolo said:

A plunk checker is almost useless with my CZ SP01 Shadow.   When I load any new "bullet" I pull the barrel out and make up a test round and drop it in the barrel, but the true test is getting it out!   When pulling it out if it resists at all that's a problem.  The ACME 125gr is a good example, I loaded 1,000's at 1.135 shot them in Glocks, my Carry gun Kahr PM9, PCC, Sig P226, etc.  I take the CZ to range and shoot a 100 work good.  I go to a match, and its all good till unload and show clear, I can't open the slide.  

A "chamber checker" isn't a "plunk checker", only your specific barrel is.  As long as 9mm rounds are less than 1.169" (the SAAMI published max OAL) they will be fine in a chamber checker.  

 

I discovered my newer M&P9 2.0 CORE has a significantly shorter lead than my older M&P9 2.0 the same way you did your CZ.  Loaded to 1.135", 125 gr Blue round nose bullets fed and ejected fine from the older M&P.  Using the same OAL in my CORE fed and fired OK but ejecting a live round at ULASC took both hands to retract the slide.  A plunk test with that barrel required loading to 1.120" to pass.  

[HOGRIDER]

On 5/8/2021 at 1:55 PM, SteelCityShooter said:

A "chamber checker" isn't a "plunk checker", only your specific barrel is.  As long as 9mm rounds are less than 1.169" (the SAAMI published max OAL) they will be fine in a chamber checker.  

 

+1

 

[Kenaxford]

On 4/14/2021 at 7:46 AM, Darrell said:

The Zero 147 JHP at 1.100 (3.2 gr Tightgroup) will work great in your CZ's, the Acme will have to be plunk tested. My Bayou/Brazos 147 TC's are loaded to 1.130. I shot the Nationals with a CZ Shadow years ago when only three of us used CZ's. Now to be competitive in Production the CZ platform dominates. I have the Accu-Shadow for production and use a TS orange for local PPC matches. This year I'm dedicating myself to Carry Optics Division and shooting a P320 X5 Legion, or a Shadow Systems DR920. I currently shoot the DR920 better. Good luck to you. Check out my spreadsheet on this forum and it may give you some help picking a load.

Can you point me to this spreadsheet (couldn’t find it) or would you mind sharing your load for the dr920? I just picked one up after using the mr920 for a few years and I wasn’t happy with accuracy.  4” spread at 12 yards from bags.  I’m currently using 147gr blue bullets with 3.2gr n320 at 1.14 OAL providing 130 PF.  Thanks in advance!  

[HOGRIDER]

Ken:

 

I think this is Darrell's latest:

 

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/294412-darrells-latest-load-data-spreadsheet-revision-050621/?tab=comments#comment-3262439

 

 

[Kenaxford]

nothing specific to the DR920 posted yet but sill great data to look over.  thank you for sharing!