Revolver Holster Legal for Production Div

[varminter22]

Just now, IVC said:

I assume you mean "USPSA Revolver" because plenty of guys use factory ammo outside Open and Revolver. 

Yes, in USPSA and ICORE.  I really don't think I've ever met anyone that used factory ammo. 

[AzShooter]

12 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

I can't remember meeting any USPSA or ICORE shooter that uses factory ammo in any caliber!  

There use to be a lot of us.  It was a great way to get the brass you need.  

[varminter22]

8 minutes ago, IVC said:

That looks nice and you won't loose matches because of the holster. You draw once per stage and most of the time it's on the move so you usually have time to spare.

 

Classifiers are another story, but shooting Production classifiers with Revolver is a, um, interesting concept. 

I don't see shooting production div with a revolver as all that difficult, except, of course, being limited to eight rounds.

 

Its actually kinda fun.  

Edited March 28, 2021 by varminter22

[Joe4d]

well that and the reloads make u a 1 legged man at an ass kicking contest

[varminter22]

1 minute ago, Joe4d said:

well that and the reloads make u a 1 legged man at an ass kicking contest

 

Oh?  Well, I'm not a great shooter.  Am just a low B in Revolver, and a C in L10, Prod and SS, and I never finished last nor near the bottom in Prod.  

 

And a Prod Div C class shooter competes with Prod Div C class shooters, does he not?

[varminter22]

21 hours ago, IVC said:

Classifiers are another story, but shooting Production classifiers with Revolver is a, um, interesting concept. 

 

I don't mean to beleaguer the subject, but I've not been able to figure how shooting a Production classifier with a revolver is such an "interesting concept".  Don't we all shoot the same classifiers?

Edited March 29, 2021 by varminter22

[IVC]

Same classifier but the hit factor is significantly different for the same level of performance because reloads are much slower and the splits are somewhat slower. Also, it's much harder to shoot revolver with one hand because of the long trigger pull.  
 

Look at the classifier calculator in the USPSA app and see where the 100% Revolver brings you in Production.  

[varminter22]

2 hours ago, IVC said:

Same classifier but the hit factor is significantly different for the same level of performance because reloads are much slower and the splits are somewhat slower. Also, it's much harder to shoot revolver with one hand because of the long trigger pull.  
 

Look at the classifier calculator in the USPSA app and see where the 100% Revolver brings you in Production.  

Again, C Class is C Class is C Class (within one's own division).

Edited March 29, 2021 by varminter22

[IVC]

Look at HF. For example, a fast one such as "Can You Count" needs 4.6 in Revolver for C and 6.4 in Production for C. 
 

Shoot 5.0 or even 6.0 with revolver in Production and you're D, while you'd be C if you shot Revolver division. 

[varminter22]

33 minutes ago, IVC said:

 

But I still fail to see why you care and discourage folks from shooting what they want, where they want (when legal).  

 

You may be trying to win the $100,000 cash grand prize at your local or area match, but ...  

 

I could break out my 1911.  Or I could go buy one of those newfangled Production bottom feeders.  Or even buy an optic.  But I have very little interest in them.  Actually, zero interest in optics.  

 

By the way, the last time I shot "Can You Count" (06-03) my HF was 7.2098 making it a B score in Rev and making it a C score in Prod.  Well, that is exactly how I'm classed, B in Rev and C in Prod.  

Edited March 29, 2021 by varminter22

[varminter22]

On a related note, I shot with a friend back east.  He's an A (or was it B?  I forget) class shooter, I think.  He enjoyed shooting his optic sighted 8-shot revolver in USPSA Open Div occasionally.  Perhaps he'll pop in here and you can advise him how foolish he is!  

Edited March 29, 2021 by varminter22

[IVC]

That's all fair enough and people should shoot what they feel like. I'm not against it. I've seen people shoot their CCW guns, ported polymer guns with no optics, full power loads, you name it. Absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

It's not even that you won't be competitive if you shoot the wrong gun or ammo, more that you won't know how well or not you're doing because comparison is not apples to apples. 

[varminter22]

5 minutes ago, IVC said:

That's all fair enough and people should shoot what they feel like. I'm not against it. I've seen people shoot their CCW guns, ported polymer guns with no optics, full power loads, you name it. Absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

It's not even that you won't be competitive if you shoot the wrong gun or ammo, more that you won't know how well or not you're doing because comparison is not apples to apples. 

 

Roger that.  

 

Wrong gun?  Does the rule book say a revolver is the wrong gun for Production?  You better notify them to change their rule book!  

 

But won't know how well you're doing?  Again, if I'm a C class production shooter why can't I compare to other C class production shooters?

 

Maybe its time to put this one to bed.  We can agree to disagree!  

Edited March 29, 2021 by varminter22

[varminter22]

Thanks, all, for the lively discussion.  

 

I was about to talk myself out of going further in Production (with my M627).  

 

Now, however, I'm back to thinking seriously about doing it more often just because (a) I can, (b) it will be fun, and (c) all trigger time is good for ya!  Oh, and (d) its fun to finish ahead of some C, D, and occasionally even a B Prod Div bottom feeder shooters!  He he. 

[ima45dv8]

Are you having fun with shooting a wheelgun in Production, go for it!

 

I've shot with Cliff Walsh and Devon Penrod a bit and they do OK at it.

Cliff even won the Production division with a revolver at a GA State match I was at one year. 

[varminter22]

8 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

Are you having fun with shooting a wheelgun in Production, go for it!

 

I've shot with Cliff Walsh and Devon Penrod a bit and they do OK at it.

Cliff even won the Production division with a revolver at a GA State match I was at one year. 

Way cool!  And illustrates my point!

[mreed911]

On another note, I have a Dan Wesson 8" .38 Spl that would be fun to run in Steel Challenge once.  Anyone know how a Dan Wesson 15-2 maps to S&W frame sizes?

[MikeBurgess]

17 hours ago, varminter22 said:

Thanks, all, for the lively discussion.  

 

I was about to talk myself out of going further in Production (with my M627).  

 

Now, however, I'm back to thinking seriously about doing it more often just because (a) I can, (b) it will be fun, and (c) all trigger time is good for ya!  Oh, and (d) its fun to finish ahead of some C, D, and occasionally even a B Prod Div bottom feeder shooters!  He he. 

I think that's a fine Idea, shoot what you want and have fun, 99.9% of the time we all win the same nothing. 

 

 

I think the disconnect you are seeing with the advice is the the difference between participation and competition. You seem to be a participant, there is 100% nothing wrong with that, I was the same for about 8 years. Shooting a Revo in Production is a participation exercise, its fun and if you beat your buddy you can rub it in, but you are not as competitive within that division as you would be if you were using equipment more suited to the division. The gaps in equipment performance are why we have divisions in the first place, so its's easy to understand why people recommend that one run their chosen equipment in a division that suits it. 

 

 

 

[varminter22]

21 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 

I understand that train of thought, but again, being competitive in a specific class is being competitive in that specific class no matter what equipment one uses!  

 

Now if a person wants to spend a whole lot of time, money, and effort to purchase and train with a whole new platform (meaning the newfangled bottom feeders that are so popular in Prod and CO and make a living as a sponsored shooter and win those huge $100,000 cash prizes at local and area matches, sure, that's fine!  And it might make him/her more competitive assuming he/she gets along with the new platform.  

 

I suppose I am a participant.  A somewhat competitive participant - IN MY CLASS!  I still say one can be competitive with whatever legal handgun he/she chooses IN HIS/HER SPECIFIC CLASS.  

 

I don't think it wise to tell the guy (that was mentioned above) that won an area Production Div match with his revolver that he wasn't competitive.  

Edited March 29, 2021 by varminter22

[Schutzenmeister]

29 minutes ago, varminter22 said:

I understand that train of thought, but again, being competitive in a specific class is being competitive in that specific class no matter what equipment one uses!  

I'm sorry, but I have to state you could not be more wrong.  If you TRULY believe this then go shoot your 627 against other "C" class shooters in Open. (This assumes they are as competent in "C" Open as you are in "C" Revolver.)  You will likely have your head handed to you in a basket.

 

That said ... I 100% appreciate and support the concept of shooting what makes you happy.  Select ANY gun you want, shoot it in ANY division for which it qualifies and HAVE FUN!  I fear too many folks have lost sight of the "fun" aspect of our sport.

 

FWIW, I seem to remember Jerry Miculek one year shot his 627 in Production at Nationals.  I don't recall what year it was, but the match was in Vegas that year.  I absolutely 100% guarantee you, HE DID NOT FINISH LAST!

[MikeyScuba]

19 hours ago, varminter22 said:

On a related note, I shot with a friend back east.  He's an A (or was it B?  I forget) class shooter, I think.  He enjoyed shooting his optic sighted 8-shot revolver in USPSA Open Div occasionally.  Perhaps he'll pop in here and you can advise him how foolish he is!  

Alva?  He’s a damm good shooter but doesn’t stray far from Rochester.  At least from what I’ve seen but I’m relatively new compared to you lot.

[varminter22]

12 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

I'm sorry, but I have to state you could not be more wrong.  If you TRULY believe this then go shoot your 627 against other "C" class shooters in Open. (This assumes they are as competent in "C" Open as you are in "C" Revolver.)  You will likely have your head handed to you in a basket.

...

 

Thanks.  We agree on a lot.

 

Again, a disconnect.  

 

I said I am already classified C in Production with my M627.   NOT other divisions.  At least that is what I meant!  I think I mentioned that somewhere above.

 

Yes, IF repeat IF I were to go get classified with my M627 in Open, sure I would probably be D (or sub D!  Ha.)  

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by varminter22

[varminter22]

5 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

Alva? ...

No.  More Midwest.  

[varminter22]

Again, not to beleaguer the subject, but let me try to clarify with an example.  

 

Lets say a guy has never shot USPSA before.  He decides to shoot his revolver in Prod Div.  He shoots a bunch of classifiers and is classified in C class.  IS HE NOT COMPETITIVE IN HIS CLASS?  Of course he is.  

 

Now, that guy is just an example.  Not me.  As I said earlier, I am classified B in Revolver Div.  And I am classified C in Production (with same revolver).  Now that C classification is NOT because I was downgraded one classification from B.  No, it is because I actually shot plenty of classifiers and was legitimately classified C.  

 

So, again, how can one say I cannot be competitive in my class?  

 

Will I ever attain GM classification and be competitive in Prod?  Ha, no, but like many, many folks, that ain't gonna happen no matter what gun I use and that was never the gist of this conversation - unless your definition of "being competitive" means becoming a GM and winning the big matches.   

Edited March 29, 2021 by varminter22

[IVC]

1 hour ago, varminter22 said:

Again, not to beleaguer the subject, but let me try to clarify with an example.

Sure you can see it that way, but you're taking a concept that is already poor and a stretch and you're removing the last remnant of logic from it. 

 

 

You are not really "competing within a class." The class is there to track your progress, like belts in martial arts or handicaps in various sports. It's really your generic ranking of skills and competence. Those who attribute meaning to the class or handicap in the competitive context are completely missing the point - you either beat another person or you don't. Want to beat everyone in a class? Get better and move up. You already beat everyone in a class? You're already the next class up (your skill is there). Getting consistently beaten by someone in a lower class? Either you're not yet at the level of your classification, or more likely, the other person is not correctly classified (intentionally or not). No matter how you look at it, you're competing against everyone in your division and you're looking at what your percentage of the winner is. That's your ranking. People with higher percentage beat you, people with lower percentage were beaten by you. To move up 5%, you have to have 5% better hit factors (roughly). Simple. 

 

To say it differently, let's say you are at a huge match with the top shooters there. The winner is at 100% and the rest start gradually down from there (sometimes not so gradually, but that's besides the point). Everyone has a score. You draw the line at 95%, 85%, 75%, 60% and 40% and look who's closest to that line from below. There are your "class winners." Yet, the guy with 41% still beat the guy with 39%. Actually, if you look at the "top 20" rankings on the USPSA website, this is exactly what you'll find - ranking of classifier scores per bracket. Anyone who feels special for being at 59.9999% and thinking "I'm the best C shooter in the country" is (again) completely missing the point.

 

If you now mix divisions such as shooting Revolver in Production, not only is the concept of "competing within a class" already meaningless, but you made it completely arbitrary because the same percentage no longer represents the same skill. At least if you tried to compare within the class you were comparing apples to apples because scores translate directly to performance and all you're doing is pretending that you're winning something when you're not. Beating a guy in the same division, regardless of the whole class mess, means that you shot better and with more skill than he did. When you mix divisions, it's now apples to oranges and you're comparing raw scores which are no longer a reflection of skill comparison. Sure you can always compare two numbers, but it literally means nothing at that time. 

 

In other words, I can run faster than Micheal Phelps can swim, but as long as we compare his distance in one minute and my distance in one minute we can "compete against each other." Right?