Popper Not Falling

[oddjob]

During a course of fire a shooter hits a popper three times and it doesn't fall. I saw that the last shot hit the upper area where it would be hit for a calibration shot (the other two were just below the round area). I noticed as the popper was hit it was still leaning forward to the point it was not going to fall. The shooter was using a 9mm with W-W 147's (I knew this). I stopped the shooter for range equipment failure. The bolt to adjust the popper came loose and it was leaning forward.

Question....One of the shooters stated I should not have stopped the shooter at all and should have let him continue and then call for a calibration. The only time a range equipment failure can be called is when something activates a mover (wind), walls fall down & etc, but not a popper. Checked the USPSA rules (4.6.1), but couldn't find where the other shooter was correct. Any thoughts?? This was a local club match, but I still would like to follow the rules. Thanks

[ima45dv8]

Appendix C1, section 6 of the current rulebook states, "If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when shot, a competitor has three alternatives:...." They are listed as A, B and C.

It doesn't say anything about the RO having alternatives, and doesn't state any action for the match officials (i.e., "calibration Officer") until after the shooter chooses action "C" by leaving the popper standing and challenges the calibration. Your friends were correct when they said you shouldn't have stopped the shooter.

Also, you can call REM for poppers when, for example, the RO notices one was not reset from the previous run but the current shooter has already begun his attempt at the CoF. Then it's a good thing to stop them.

HTH,

...Mark

Edited October 24, 2005 by ima45dv8

[oddjob]

4.3.1.5 This rule speaks of metal targets when hit and so on....so this does not apply when speaking of poppers? I read the words "metal plates" elsewhere, but this section has "metal targets". Any Thoughts?

[ima45dv8]

4.3.1.5 This rule speaks of metal targets when hit and so on....so this does not apply when speaking of poppers? I read the words "metal plates" elsewhere, but this section has "metal targets". Any Thoughts?

There's been some controversy/discussion about US4.3.1.5 lately. The question is, which metal target(s) is this rule referring to? Some feel that the language describing the action of "turning edge-on or sideways" when hit indicates this rule was written to deal with falling metal plates; not poppers. Personally, I support that position. If that is in fact the case then US4.3.1.5 might not apply to poppers and the mandates of Appendix C would then govern failures to fall when struck. I think this has been discussed as a point of clarificationin the next version of the rulebook.

Let me search around and I'll see if I can dig up something from John Amidon or Troy on this issue (seems I vaguely recall one of them being quoted on this).

*I see Flex is reading this and will probably beat me to the punch on finding a valid reference (he has those Bots working overtime on these things )

[XRe]

I could've sworn that a previous thread had arrived at 4.6 being able to apply to this situation. ie, if the RO felt like there was a mechanical problem with the popper, the RO could stop the shooter on his/her own volition. This would obviously not be a common situation.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the post I was looking for at this moment...

[ima45dv8]

OK. Here's a long thread that discusses/argues what rule would apply.

As I said, I don't think it's the ROs place to stop someone for this, but others feel differently. If an RO stops someone for this, he now owns the situation. A reshoot is almost automatic.

I don't want to stop someone and take their responsibility away from them. They should have the presence of mind to call for a challenge of the popper. I have enough problems without stealing them from the shooters I'm running.

Edited October 24, 2005 by ima45dv8

[Jim Norman]

If a piece of equipment in the COF is OBVIOUSLY broken, I feel the only correct course of action for the RO is to stopthe shooter.

Why?

We have in many cases a limited amount of time on a range due to daylight or other reasons. We have other shooters that will be coming ontothe COF. Why are we going to let the shooter run all the way through the COF knowing that he is going to get a reshoot? He is getting a live fire walk-through. No one else gets that. We also have the situation that a popper once hit and especially hit multiple times is no longer in the condition it was in when the shooter started hitting it. It is entirely possible that a calibratoin shoot may take it down, even though the popper is KNOWN tobe broken. This is just palin wrong. It may be that this is something the rules committee needs to address.

Jim Norman

[Precision40]

If a shooter hits the popper and it doesn't fall, is that ground for a chrono of that shooters ammo? This came up recently.

I was under the impression that under the new rulebook you cannot chrono just one shooter, if one then all.

Can someone quote me a reference on that?

[Flexmoney]

*I see Flex is reading this and will probably beat me to the punch on finding a valid reference (he has those Bots working overtime on these things )

I pulled back and didn't post on this one in the early stages.

Each shooter should face the same challenge. If it is a clear case of a broken appartus, then it is REF. If you are sure stop the shooter...save time and ammo...and, order the reshoot. But, be sure. (entertain the possibility of sending the shooter to the chrono).

[D.Hayden]

I was under the impression that under the new rulebook you cannot chrono just one shooter, if one then all.

3 Gun Nationals - picked random shooters..

[oddjob]

I was R/O ing the stage and was willing to "own" the stage or re-shoot. I really felt that for the shooter to go on was useless and that the popper was malfunctioning. Kinda like a Personal Foul in the NFL (I'm a 49'er fan.......I know they suck). It kinda seems that if the R/O stops the shooter like I did...its ok within 4.3.1.5 (Metal Targets defined under 4.3). Under other "circumstances" I would let the shooter go on (and I have in the past when I felt the hits on the popper was low and it was at least moving like it was gonna fall). It also appears that the shooter who told me I shouldn't stop the shooter was also correct. I guess the bottom line is that the R/O has to make a judgement call. The only part of this that would bother me is that I have R/O'ed a couple of "major" matches and I would hate to make a "wrong" call to a "pro" or a shooter like the rest of us that paid big bucks to play. I read the thread that ima45dv8 pointed out to me and from what I read its still a judgement call. I've always felt that if there is a question then it goes to the benefit of the shooter.....Thus 4.3.1.5 SEEMS to be a reasonable rule to have. Oh well....49'ers got killed by the Redskins anyway on the same day.....and my XD9 was choking.

[driver8M3]

it's important that the shooter understand his options b/c not all ROs will react the same way.

[schoonie]

At a club level match where I have some knowledge of the shooter and his ammunition's performance during the match or in general, I'd stop him.

At a major match, no way! The shooter has to make the call in accordance with the rules.

We can discover the malfunction after the course of fire is properly completed. Hopefully the shooter remembers to call for a calibration in order to get the reshoot.

If I determine that the popper is obviously broken it's an automatic reshoot, no need for a calibration.

[John Heiter]

That's not the RO's call to make. If you stop the shooter and the RM comes in to calibrate the faulty popper and it falls then you've just given that shooter a free run they didn't earn. It should always be up to the shooter in a case like this. What happens when the next guy gets up there and edge hits it and it doesn't fall? He's going to look at you expecting you to stop him and give him a reshoot. Now you're in a position of having to explain that you felt the first shooters' hits were better or that you knew all there was to know about the first shooters' ammo. I definitely think you did the decent thing, just not the right thing in this case.

Best plan is to go on and finish the stage and then call for calibration. If you're the shooter and you're that sure of your ammo, your hits, and the popper malfunction then you can just go ahead and unload, show clear, and call for the calibration right there and save a few rounds and some pasters. To me, that's a big gamble to take to save a dollars worth of ammo.

I'm finding more and more places in our rulebook where the common sense and/or decent thing to do would be one thing but the rules call for another. Most of them, like this one, do so for the right reason IMO.

[LPatterson]

If I determine that the popper is obviously broken it's an automatic reshoot, no need for a calibration.

If the popper is still standing then there is need for calibration, and that is the responsibility of the Range Master. Even for local matches someone functions as the RM. Even if the RO is sure the popper is broken and they fix it they are still going to have to call for calibration so why not follow the rules and let the RM make the determination first.

[jeffscaspian]

Schoonie,

I agree with you. At a local match, you have a lot of new shooters who know nothing of the rule book or calibrations. You also have a lot of shooters that have a limited amount of ammo. So stop the shooter and fix the problem. Remember, this is susposed to be fun.

At a major match, I also agree with Schoonie. You must assume that the shooter has some understanding of the rules and he will asked for a calibration. If not then he will learn after that stage and it will be a good learning experience for him.

[schoonie]

One thing I want to point out,

I see a vast difference between local club matches and higher level matches. The competition at the club level is not as intense and neither are the shooters, it's very relaxed, so these issues just don't come up. Some of the local matches in my area do not have a designated 'Range Master' to make a final call, we barely have enough certified ROs imbedded in the squads who know the 'real' rules.

I know the rules are the rules but match structure just is not the same for the different match levels, ie. the ROs sometimes have to act as the RM as well.

Not all club matches are this limited though, some make a concerted effort to structure the event like the Nationals; use certified RO's only, designate an acting RM, etc.. The club I see this taking place at has a very large number of active members and their club match turnout can get close to 75 shooters. With the large numbers the intensity increases so a much more structured event is required.

[driver8M3]

I agree with you. At a local match, you have a lot of new shooters who know nothing of the rule book or calibrations.

not only that, how many times have you seen chronos at local matches? i've seen one in the past 2 years.

with that in mind, let's think more about this. if there is no chrono, the declared power factor must be accepted (5.6.1). therefore, if someone has a good hit (or hits) on a popper, and it doesnt go down, isn't that really an automatic range equipment failure? with no chrono, you cant possibly have a calibration gun. so this situation seems to present 2 very different possibilities depending on the match (local vs. major), both of which are well within the rules.

Edited October 26, 2005 by driver8M3

[Turtle]

Popper Calibration, good topic for you Russ. Your airsoft gun and match gun shoot about the same pf, don't they?

BTW, my brother said I can borrow his Boxster if you want to 'test' your new ride.....

NT

[richardschennberg]

Don't stop the shooter. Ask the shooter at the end of the run if he wants a calibration. If the shooter declines calibration, you can still ask the Range Master (or Match Director in a small match without an Range Master) if he wants to declare Range Equipment Failure and whether he wants to require a reshoot. This is a good idea for any time when the Range Officer is not sure if a reshoot is required. At least that way you can use the original time and target scores if the Range Master/Match Director decides that a reshoot is not required.

[driver8M3]

Popper Calibration, goog topic for you Russ. Your airsoft gun and match gun shoot about the same pf, don't they?

funny nobody has noticed yet...my airsoft gun actually is my match gun. dont tell anyone...

[nbright]

Even some experienced shooter forget their options. Today a shooter fired three dead center hits on a pepper popper and it didn't fall, it was attached to a swinger which didn't activate so the shooter was prevented from completing the course of fire.

The RO stopped him which was both appropriate and necessary, fixed the popper and granted the reshoot.

[MoNsTeR]

We also have the situation that a popper once hit and especially hit multiple times is no longer in the condition it was in when the shooter started hitting it.

This isn't getting enough emphasis. Due to this factor, IMHO, the whole "finish and call for calibration" paradigm is 100% broken. If the calibration shot drops the popper, all that proves is that one more shot would have done the job. It tells us exactly nothing about whether it should have fallen for the actual shooter's actual hits.

[brother bad]

We also have the situation that a popper once hit and especially hit multiple times is no longer in the condition it was in when the shooter started hitting it.

This isn't getting enough emphasis. Due to this factor, IMHO, the whole "finish and call for calibration" paradigm is 100% broken. If the calibration shot drops the popper, all that proves is that one more shot would have done the job. It tells us exactly nothing about whether it should have fallen for the actual shooter's actual hits.

there's nothing that specifically addresses this scenario or the physics involved, however. i suggest that if there was, the applicable rule would run as long as our present rulebook.

them's the breaks. until popper design is 100 percent uniform throughout uspsa and ALL physical variables are tested, verified and mandated, this situation is going to exist. (and that's NOT gonna happen).

even if it did; there's always the wind, not to mention the subtle (and not so subtle) variation in competitors' ammo/power factors. <shrug>

[OpnBlstr]

them's the breaks. until popper design is 100 percent uniform throughout uspsa and ALL physical variables are tested, verified and mandated, this situation is going to exist. (and that's NOT gonna happen).

even if it did; there's always the wind, not to mention the subtle (and not so subtle) variation in competitors' ammo/power factors. <shrug>

Forward falling poppers solve 99.99% of all the calibration and function problems I have seen in matches. Power factor is no longer an issue, any wind short of a natural disaster is no problem, and they are safer in that there is less splatter leaving the range since they start slightly angled toward the shooter.

With FF poppers, you can make them out of heavier steel to last longer yet they do not require a Desert Eagle .50 to get them moving.

Some places in the world have actually outlawed any poppers BUT forward falling due to safety concerns.

Just know when you are shooting FF poppers though since if you try driving them down, you are actually driving them back up!!

Call me crazy, but I would like to see a lot more forward falling steel here in the USA. The best designs I have seen so far have had a large diameter spring that tensions the plate toward the shooter to get it moving and out of the way of the latch, and a spring on the latch to eliminate a "regrab" condition is a shooter doubles the steel.