The State Of 3 Gunning

[PacMan]

Ok, so we have moved away from the sticky issue of hot reholstering, now it is shotgun round count and the whining of too much reloading? I thought 3 gunning is a discipline that requires PROFICIENCY in all three weapons? Everyone practices to get much better at reloading a pistol and rifle, so why not carry the same attitude to shotgun? Heck, I can say the same about the skill of (rifle) long distance marksmanship, too many competitors that I ran through the last 3 RM3G matches didn't know squat about shooting beyond 100 yds. using a scoped AR but I didn't hear anyone whined about us putting those pesky flash targets way out there...325 yds. In the end, just about all of them said - "I better get some long range practices in", there you go, problem solved!

It is also the intimidation factor for most potential new shooters - they feel that more practice would be needed before they can attend a 3 gun match. How about just host some 3 gunning introduction matches? I don't see any big gun shooters do this, may be it's time for the 3 gun gods (you know who I'm referring to) to do just that

[Zak Smith]

In my first post to this thread, I suggested ditching the shotgun because I think it's an antiquated weapon for general purpose use (as in practical utility), not because I hate reloading or don't like shotgun stages.

If we have shotgun, there should be at least one high round count shotgun-loading stage in a match, because if you choose to employ a shotgun, the crux is carrying shells and reloading it.

Most people who do not shoot 3Gun but have a shotgun for self defense are not cognizant of the reloading issues.

[George]

I think most folks are figuring/hoping that the fight won't last more than a few rounds if they have a shotgun. If I am wielding a shotgun and it runs dry, I can dump it for a handgun with 15+ rounds in it a lot faster than I can put "one" round back into the shotgun.

I think using a shotgun until it's dry and dumping it for a handgun/rifle is a perfectly practical stage layout as opposed to starting with a handgun, then dumping it in favor of a shotgun like at the recent US3G.

[PacMan]

If we have shotgun, there should be at least one high round count shotgun-loading stage in a match, because if you choose to employ a shotgun, the crux is carrying shells and reloading it.

My point exactly Zak! BTW, I was just responding to the last few posts that were whining about having a match decided by shotgun loading (skill).

[mike.45]

Well said Pacman, my thoughts entirely - its called 3 gun for a reason - so get good with all three weapon types.....

or change the name to 'A pistol and AR gun competition'

[Cactustactical]

Yes I know you can use the thigh carriers but I must admit, I didn't like them when I had to wear them at work before I retired. Think they are practical? Try getting out of the drivers seat in a patrol car with your seat belt on 10 times in a hurry with one on.........

[end of quote]

Bob, with all respect, the fact that you did not like to wear a thigh rig while you were at work has nothing to do with 3 gun. This is a game, you can take the extra equipment off after a stage is over. What you wore or how you positioned it while you practiced your former profession has nothing to do with 3 gunning.

The name of the game is 3 Gun. Some of the various matches profess to be "practical", this seems to be the argument against high shell count stages. I still would like to know what "practical" is since it seems to mean different things to different people. Other matches offer stages which test you and your endurance and your equipment in all 3 weapons systems. I like the shotgun and enjoy the stress of reloads, slug on demand, etc on the clock. It seems like the main issue is the lack of skill with the shotgun as a weapons system. Everyone has one in their closet, but most people have no idea how to use it.

We get a lot of new and infrequent shotgun shooters at our monthly multi gun match. It is pretty obvious that most of these people simply lean the gun in their closet and never figure out how to use it. Some of these people realize that they need to practice more and learn how to use the shotgun as a weapons system, others complain about the 16-18 shell stages we setup. Those that come back get better over time, the others lean the gun in their closet and we never see them again. So, we keep setting up the 16-18 shell stages so that people have the opportunity to work on their movement while reloading, slug on demand, reloading, etc.

[kurtm]

Zak:

Are you wondering why the military wants a more powerful round for the AR?? Because the carbine you are touting so much doesn't work too well. Not so the shotgun! Believe it or not the Marines are employing thier fine new Benelli in great numbers for building clearing in Iraq, do you know why!! It stops MUCH better than the M-4 carbine. Now I will be the first to admit that shotguns aren't sexy like the little ARs, but they do work I can remember when people used to say the M-14 was an archaic weapon, but now I see them all the time in the hands of our military in Iraq ( kind of follows the first part of the post don't you think? ) Since the shotgun is still a T.O.E. weapon for both the Army and Marines, and many police forces use it, pehapse if we are to call it 3-gun we should be able to use it well. BTW don't tell the guys that use them they have no use in the modern world, they would disagree with you.

I would never dump off a working shotgun as long as I had ammo for it. With a modicum of practice almost anyone can get a shell into a shotgun in the same or less time it takes to drop the shotgun and grab a pistol, and I do believe that a shotgun round is WAY more powerful than any pistol round usually carried for self-defence. As was once said, pistols are fine, but buckshot means burying! It hasn't changed.

What does this have to do with the "state" of 3-gun. Nothing! I have been following this thread and I was most amuzed by the guy who said I" hardly ever shoot 3-gun anymore and then only locally," and then goes on to post a whole bunch stuff about how it should be. Priceless! Yes it would be nice to have unified rules, but almost all are close enough so anyone that wants to can play. It would be nice to have unified scoring, but who cares there are enough matches of all types to please anyone who wants to shoot. It sounds like USPSA has finally gotten it's act together and now we can consider the Nationals a real "major" 3-gun match. All these things are good. The only thing I have seen here is people wanting to change a rule here or there for personal gain, not for the good of the sport. I think it,s just fine the way it is. KURT

[Zak Smith]

I've seen good arguments on both sides of "shotgun is obsolete". Also note that a lot of people, organizations, and departments make "bad" weapons choices.

Edited October 24, 2005 by Zak Smith

[PacMan]

...I think it,s just fine the way it is. KURT

Bingo!

(I think Kellyn just want to stir up the pot once in a while to see how many pages we can go before he locks it up )

[George]

Howdy Kurt, welcome to the discussion.

I do see your point about staying with the weapon that has a larger PF than a .308 rifle ;-) That does make sense when you put it that way. I was looking at being able to be back in action with 15+ rounds in under 2 seconds as the criterion and figured that a fully loaded shotgun was not worth working for in the moment.

I absolutely agree that a squad of modern day 3 gun shooters could be helo dropped into any major 3gun match and the gear in hand would be just fine by whatever rules were in play :-)

The US3G was a pretty good affair this year. It had no issues that were major and it's only gonna' get better :-) The upside to this is that there is another big 3 gun match that is a must attend for serious 3gunners. There is no downside to that!

--

Regards,

[kurtm]

Zak makes a great point!! A lot of organizations made a very bad weopons choice about 1963 and US GIs have paid the price for it ever since, and it still doesn't work well for stopping anything bigger than a coyote. May I ask why you have been championing the 6.8 Zak?? And yet once again this has nothing to do with the state of 3-gun. KURT

[Zak Smith]

re: the mousegun

And yet once again this has nothing to do with the state of 3-gun.

Right, so why are you going on about it??

[kellyn]

(I think Kellyn just want to stir up the pot once in a while to see how many pages we can go before he locks it up )

I'm not planning on locking this down at all. This is a free for all thread as long as it's kept civil. So stir away.

Shotgun loading:

Shotgun loading is an essential skill. It does have a "larger than life" impact at 3 gun matches though. It's just a fact of life that large shotgun stages (which are fun!) will involve a lot of loading.

I do like the fact that competition has resulted in a slew of shotgun loading techniques.

Scoring:

I don't think scoring really has too much impact on who wins. The same people seem to rise to the top. But I want scoring to make sense. IMGA scoring does not really make sense to me. I would not consider 2 D hits with a 9mm to be a neutralized target. Likewise I see no need for a .308 to have to have 2 C zones to be neutralized. Comstock (tweaked San Angelo style) and Enos scoring do make sense to me.

Power factor (part deux):

Power factors call for a clear dividing line. Above the line major, below the line minor. I like clear lines. Saying that steel falls better to major loads is not really a consistent way to run a scoring system or match. What if a club has only 3 pepper poppers? What if a stage has only paper targets?

USPSA v. the outlaws (part deux):

I'll back off on my statement that ALL 3 gun matches should move under the USPSA to say that MOST should. I could never see North American Tac falling in line with anything! KyleL is too cruel to the competitors! But I can certainly see SMM3G or RM3G and maybe even MGM move under the USPSA banner with but a little pain and anguish. This is certainly not to say that USPSA 3 Gun is perfect as the outlaws still run the best matches.

In the end, I realize that 3 gun is a Game (about the funnest one going) but I would like to see it mature as a real Sport and I think USPSA heads us in that direction. I'm not so much in favor of USPSA taking over the outlaws as the outlaws working together and taking over USPSA 3 Gun.

[cottyw]

Is there anyone here smart enough to put together a multiple issue voting page to let people vote on what direction they want the sport to move based on the issues raised in this thread?

Will

[MikeFoley]

I think most folks are figuring/hoping that the fight won't last more than a few rounds if they have a shotgun. If I am wielding a shotgun and it runs dry, I can dump it for a handgun with 15+ rounds in it a lot faster than I can put "one" round back into the shotgun.

I think using a shotgun until it's dry and dumping it for a handgun/rifle is a perfectly practical stage layout as opposed to starting with a handgun, then dumping it in favor of a shotgun like at the recent US3G.

RIGHT ON!

[kurtm]

Zak, not really going on about it, as your post was about shotguns, I pointed out why we still have them. Your post was about bad choices, I pointed one out. As Tim Allen says...more power!!

To recap, your view of 3-gun is to make it two gun, and my version is to keep it 3-gun.

I don't think I would like to take over USPSA 3-gun, it comes with a way too thick rule book and assigned R.O.s that I just wouldn't like to work with, but it is a quaint idea Kelly, which really gets back to some of my original posts a few years ago, keep USPSA out of 3-gun. Now don't get me wrong I shoot some USPSA 3-gun matches/tournaments, and they are OK, but the real fun is at SMM3G and RM3G. They, smm3g, and we, rm3g do stuff that would curl the rule book and cause conjestive heart failure in ROs that are assigned to work the match. No thanks! But I will continue to enjoy the occational USPSA 3-gun what ever, like Texas state, and Arkansas State, and now maybe even the Nationals. KURT

[Zak Smith]

To recap, your view of 3-gun is to make it two gun, and my version is to keep it 3-gun.

No, not exactly. I wrote what I meant:

Ditch the shotgun. [....] In its place, I would personally prefer a long range precision rifle, a subgun, or some type of physical challenge or orienteering component.

[kellyn]

Kurt, I don't think I've ever had an idea called "quaint." I think it's splendiferous.

Kurt, I also don't think that 5.56mm is an ineffective military cartridge. So there!

[gl]

Kurt, I don't think I've ever had an idea called "quaint." I think it's splendiferous.

Kurt, I also don't think that 5.56mm is an ineffective military cartridge. So there!

Kelly,

Quit using big words or Kurt will stop posting............. LOL.

Guy

Edited October 25, 2005 by gl

[kurtm]

I hardly think a precision rifle fills the nitch of a shotgun, or did you mean a precision rifle stage? Subgun?? who can own them and or afford them?? how many transferable weapons are left out there for all the 3-gunners to obtain, except for the states that just don't allow it. I guess we just leave them out? This is part of what I am talking about. Let me ask this, how many people are shooting the precision side matches, or the MOR at the USPSA matches. Not many! Are we to further narrow our field? Now instead of a $900.00 shotgun we will need a $1500.00 rifle and optic that cost just as much as the rifle because a few people want to do away with the shotgun? I don't think that is the way 3-gunning is headed. If it were, there would be a lot of support for MOR/Precision rifle, and there isn't. This sounds just like anothere "me" rule change and not for the greater good.

Splendiferous is a great big word but I think I can hang! As soon as someone tells me what it means It,s when he starts in on Latin that gets me...klatu verata nicktu... or some such. Oh and BTW I think the 5.56X45 is a great military cartridge. we need a good effective training round that feeds well, because 22LR just jams too much, and is very dirty to clean. Give me something that shoots the standard 13mm caseless armor piercing round like in Aliens! Now we're cooking with natural gas!! OH and the last jab...I just have to... What did one of the Imperial Marines have in his pack for close encounters?? YEP a cut down pump 12 gage and it worked just fine in the futur too kurtm

[Zak Smith]

My point is that the "niche" of a shotgun is limited and I don't think it has much unique value over what a rifle provides, in a "practical" TOE. I said as much in my first post. Why would I grab a shotgun instead of a rifle of sufficient power?

-z

[GeneralChang]

I hardly think a precision rifle fills the nitch of a shotgun, or did you mean a precision rifle stage? Subgun?? who can own them and or afford them?? how many transferable weapons are left out there for all the 3-gunners to obtain, except for the states that just don't allow it. I guess we just leave them out? This is part of what I am talking about. Let me ask this, how many people are shooting the precision side matches, or the MOR at the USPSA matches. Not many! Are we to further narrow our field? Now instead of a $900.00 shotgun we will need a $1500.00 rifle and optic that cost just as much as the rifle because a few people want to do away with the shotgun? I don't think that is the way 3-gunning is headed. If it were, there would be a lot of support for MOR/Precision rifle, and there isn't. This sounds just like anothere "me" rule change and not for the greater good.

Splendiferous is a great big word but I think I can hang! As soon as someone tells me what it means It,s when he starts in on Latin that gets me...klatu verata nicktu... or some such. Oh and BTW I think the 5.56X45 is a great military cartridge. we need a good effective training round that feeds well, because 22LR just jams too much, and is very dirty to clean. Give me something that shoots the standard 13mm caseless armor piercing round like in Aliens! Now we're cooking with natural gas!! OH and the last jab...I just have to... What did one of the Imperial Marines have in his pack for close encounters?? YEP a cut down pump 12 gage and it worked just fine in the futur too kurtm

Oh my God, priceless, just priceless.

Thank you Kurt, someone needed to put things in place. LMAO

[P.E. Kelley]

OK, time to rise from my f’ing DQ funk and add my two centavos.

RULES:

3 gunning is a game! A great, fun and labor intensive game! Game defined: “a sporting or other activity in which players compete against one another by following a fixed set of rules”. I have been playing with guns for over 40 years and since 1987 have shot many local, state, national and international competitions. From international Air and Standard pistol and NRA’s bullseye to Highpower and small bore position rifle. Bowling pins, handgun metallic silhouette (in every form). And a slew IPSC handgun, shotgun and 3gun competitions. Even a few sporting clay events for good measure! Many of the aforementioned competitions were shot back to back with some on the same weekend, so my knowledge of the rules and the consistency of their application was MANDATORY!

I think it would benefit most of us to have consistent rules within the 3 gun community. Why? As you may have read in the Front Sight (but that is doubtful as only two of us read every issue) I penned a piece that mentioned the problems faced by a fictitious character who was on his way to a major money match win, when he found out that “range equipment failure” was NOT a universally accepted re-shoot! This is but one example of many. Without some level of consistency what financial chances are you willing to take with rules that may be made up on the spot?

Don’t think it can happen? Recall a recent major 3gun match where some shooters were told “to avoid a miss penalty just shoot a round in the general direction of the flying clay that may or may not be available from designated port”. Unless of course it WAS available then you had better hit it to avoid said penalty. Or some of the oddly severe and match crippling penalties for failing to hit disappearing clay targets. These are fine at the local “sandlot” but not something that we should find at a major match and especially not something we should hear for the first time at the shooters meeting. Rules and equipment guidelines need to be established and understood before we invest our capital.

The USPSA (as most seem to agree) has improved their 3 gun game, mostly I believe because the “outlaw” matches have shown the way. Our USPSA representatives (Bruce Gary) have watched, listened, learned and worked to employ these lessons. If my friend Kurt is willing to shoot the USPSA 3G Nationals then things must be better!

SHOTGUN IN 3 GUN:

KEEP IT!

The shotgun not the handgun turns out to be (in the context of 3gun) the hardest gun to master! I for one will not rest until I figure out how to reload the dam thing fast enough to keep up with the big dogs and learn to quit missing so as to not affect more of those dam reloads! Stages beyond 27 or 28 rounds tax me as more of a test of where to store ammo than a shooting problem but thankfully these stages are rare. I really like the shotgun and feel it is a viable and versatile thinking mans tool that should remain an integral part of the consummate 3 gunner’s repertoire.

Sorry for the extended post it just kinda spilled out.

Thanks for the space

PK

[kurtm]

A "practical" T.O.E ?? Table of organisation and equipment might include a stapler, hole punch, pens and pencils if you are assigned as a clerk, but I have never herd of it being practical ( a little military joke to start the day )

I reread your original post and never once saw anything about "a rifle of sufficient power", but now that you bring it up, I agree!! He-Man should be a part of the new face of 3-gun. This class is growing fast and is well attended. The major changes for he-man would be the equipment rules, as some places say pump shotgun only and others say auto is ok. Some say 8 rounds in the pistol some say 10. This is the one area that seems to need a bit of help in the 3-gun world. Thanks for bringing it up! KURT

[Larry White]

The rules between USPSA and the others are closer than they have ever been and USPSAs rules are provisional,so they will probaly be tweeked some more. DVC is pretty much the core of USPSA and they should keep that. The outlaws all have elements that make their matches unique and they should keep those. I dont think anyone cares how these matches are scored as long as its the same for everone and known before hand. Been a lot of talk here and in another thread about attracting and keeping new shooters and common rules cant do anything but help that. Heavy metal/ He man is growing and should be encouraged to grow, a common set of equipment rules would be a plus with that. We are closer than we have ever been to a larger and stronger 3 gun community, lets not stop now.-----Larry