IVC Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 55 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said: Why not start a thread on that before this one gets cluttered with another topic? 2 minutes ago, motosapiens said: we've been doing this for years. if the shooter wants to bag the gun, I say 'if clear, hammer down and bag'. This is not unusual on windy dusty days. frequently the RM has a bagged gun for calibration instead of wearing one on his hip all day. I have contacted Troy and will start a new thread when I get the response. The problem with bagging at the end of COF is that it both makes absolute sense AND is not covered or directly allowed by the rules. That's what I hope to get a definitive answer on. I will post the e-mail when I hear back. (And, I will make sure it's another thread so it can be searched and referenced directly.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, IVC said: The problem with bagging at the end of COF is that it both makes absolute sense AND is not covered or directly allowed by the rules. You think? I disagree. 5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). while 8.3.7.3 doesn't specifically mention bags or cases, 5.2.1 makes it clear that bagging/casing/holstering are all the same thing. I don't think we really need to have everything spelled out exactly, especially for such a common and longstanding process. Edited January 21, 2020 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted January 21, 2020 Author Share Posted January 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, motosapiens said: I don't think we really need to have everything spelled out exactly, especially for such a common and longstanding process. I would normally agree but cannot for two reasons: (1) 8.3.7.3 does explicitly spell out casing for PCC and only for PCC; and (2) the command ICHDH uses "must" for holstering. Best to keep this conversation on hold for a day until I can hear back from Troy and can start a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 minute ago, IVC said: I would normally agree but cannot for two reasons: (1) 8.3.7.3 does explicitly spell out casing for PCC and only for PCC; and (2) the command ICHDH uses "must" for holstering. Best to keep this conversation on hold for a day until I can hear back from Troy and can start a new thread. I'm not too worried. I know what you will hear from Troy. I'm pretty sure I have given him the command to bag his pistol before. I know I have done so for Carl and Jodi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Split from another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 3 hours ago, motosapiens said: I'm not too worried. I know what you will hear from Troy. I'm pretty sure I have given him the command to bag his pistol before. I know I have done so for Carl and Jodi. Probably, but let's hear it anyways. I remember the first time an Open shooter (M or GM, can't remember) showed up at the line with a gun in the bag, I wasn't even certified at the time, and I got confused watching his empty holster and waiting for the gun to somehow appear, while he was waiting for me to give him "Make Ready." He was a very nice guy and we chuckled about it, but I still remember how silly I felt immediately afterwards. Still, giving a guy without a gun a "Make Ready" when you don't even know what's in the bag was a bit strange... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 28 minutes ago, IVC said: Probably, but let's hear it anyways. I remember the first time an Open shooter (M or GM, can't remember) showed up at the line with a gun in the bag, I wasn't even certified at the time, and I got confused watching his empty holster and waiting for the gun to somehow appear, while he was waiting for me to give him "Make Ready." He was a very nice guy and we chuckled about it, but I still remember how silly I felt immediately afterwards. Still, giving a guy without a gun a "Make Ready" when you don't even know what's in the bag was a bit strange... You are overthinking this on so many levels. It goes back to my thoughts on being a good RO requiring experience. The first time I RO'ed I might have wondered what was going on if a guy came up with gun in bag or asked to bag after COF. BUT since I have done it, allowed it, seen it literally hundreds of times I'm confident it is not in violation of any rules. I have had several RM's over the years want to bag their match guns at the end of last COF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) Here is the official answer from Troy (with my question below): ==================================================== The proper way to case or bag a handgun at the end of a COF is to simply use the proper range commands, and when ICHDH is issued, you may substitute "bag" or simply say "holster". The rules allow for carrying a gun either in a holster or in a bag or case. Uncasing is similar, in that if a competitor comes to the line with a bagged or cased gun, the range command is simply "Make Ready". They are then free to handle their gun as needed. No separate command is needed in either case. Troy — Troy McManus Director, National Range Officers Institute https://nroi.org https://uspsa.org/ https://steelchallenge.com/ On January 21, 2020, 10:53 AM PST noreply@uspsa.org wrote: -- You received this message via the online contact form. -- Hi Troy, There was a spirited debate about the use of flags in PCC, and another side issue popped up with respect to 8.3.7.3 - while the rule allows PCCs to be cased at that time, there is no similar exemption for handguns. It appears that the only way to case a handgun at that time is to first holster, then ask the RO to supervise the casing, all prior to declaring the range clear. Short of that, the shooter must go to the safety area and bag the handgun there. Question 1: What is the proper way (if any) to case a handgun at the end of COF? Similarly, some Open shooters are so afraid of scratches that they show up as a shooter with the cased handgun. Since there is no clear guidance on uncasing the handgun at such time, it appears that the RO must first issue "Make Ready" (to ensure nobody is in front and the range is clear), then issue a separate command/supervise the uncasing of the handgun. Question 2: What is the proper way (order of commands and reasoning) for uncasing a handgun when a shooter shows up with a cased handgun? Thanks for you time! ==================================================== I'm not sure where the "...you may substitute 'bag'..." comes from since 8.3.7.3 says you "...must holster...," but this is good enough for me. It's also the most logical way to handle it, so I expect the rules will be cleaned up in the next edition to replace "PCC" with "gun" in 8.3.7.3. At least the part for uncasing is clear and consistent with the rules as they are written - issue "Make Ready" as if the gun was in the holster and handling at that time is permitted by the rules, so uncasing is automatically permitted too. All you need to know is that there is a gun in the case so that you can initiate the start of COF. Edited January 22, 2020 by IVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 7 hours ago, motosapiens said: I know what you will hear from Troy. You were right :-). I'm only surprised that he said you can substitute language in the command... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 It's an old tribal custom. Really. Using bags or cases at the start or end of a CoF has been going on so long I guess no one ever thought the language in the rulebook was a problem until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Pettifoggery ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 9 hours ago, ima45dv8 said: It's an old tribal custom. Really. Using bags or cases at the start or end of a CoF has been going on so long I guess no one ever thought the language in the rulebook was a problem until now. No rational person would think it’s a problem. Not now, not ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, IVC said: You were right :-). I'm only surprised that he said you can substitute language in the command... the rule allowing you to carry your gun in a holster, bag or case makes it pretty clear to me that they are essentially interchangeable. Edited January 22, 2020 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted January 22, 2020 Author Share Posted January 22, 2020 Still, I wonder which other commands can have language substitutions under the "no harm no foul" doctrine... How about "Shooter" instead of "Are you," or "Safe" instead of "Clear?" I'm clearly joking, but you get the idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcfoto Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Reminds me of the chuckles at ICORE when a USPSA-trained RO gives the ICHDH instead of If Clear, Close the Cylinder and Holster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 4 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: Pettifoggery ... Nice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 2 hours ago, ima45dv8 said: Nice... You can thank Chief Justice Roberts for that ... I'd never heard the word until morning's news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyScuba Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 So does the guy is this scenario have a caddy bring him his bag or does he shove it in his pants during LAMR? I did notice this not in the SC thread. Then it might be more applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Oh, no. It's very applicable to USPSA. For any number of reasons, some people will bag at the end of a CoF and gear up again at the next "Make Ready". Bathroom breaks, lunch, bad back carrying all that weight, whatever. A lot of times a buddy will hand the shooter the bag, or they pick it up back at the start position where they un-bagged to start the CoF. I've done it shooting Area and National matches many times. It really isn't a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBomber Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Some people do this if they are sharing a gun for a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 It's also common rainy or under dry/windy/dusty conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 48 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said: It's also common rainy or under dry/windy/dusty conditions. i pretty much always do it with my metal grip limited gun because I'm 58 and it's heavy. generally there is a safe table nearby tho, and i bag and unbag there so as not to mess with my make ready and ULSC routines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 16 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: It's also common rainy or under dry/windy/dusty conditions. I learned that the hard way one year at 3-Gun nationals in Vegas. It's amazing how much silty dust can fit inside a shotgun and how little of that same dust it takes to turn a semi-auto into a manually operated shotgun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 For me it was working as an RM at a Georgia sectional some years back. With the lush vegetation and abundance of trees and bushes, it's not what you would think of as 'dusty'. But running up and down the gravel range roads in a golf cart raised enough crap to turn my ever-reliable Brazos blaster into a single-shot. I started collecting shower caps at hotels when traveling and using them as gun-condoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) On 1/22/2020 at 5:44 AM, Schutzenmeister said: Pettifoggery ... Not quite... We learned a few things. First, the range commands don't always have to match the rules. If there is a tribal knowledge or habit, it supersedes the rule book. The best part is that it doesn't even have to be a level 1 match, it works at any level because Troy said so. Second, when the rule book says "must," it can be open to interpretation if other rules somewhat/sorta/kinda fit. A "must holster" means "should holster, unless you change the command." Can't wait to have someone trying to rip a new one to an RO who doesn't follow the rule book. We can just point back to this thread for the template on how to make up rules... /sarcasm Edited January 25, 2020 by IVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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