38 SC cost analysis

[BoyGlock]

8 minutes ago, zzt said:

Not trying to talk you back into 9mm BG, but with the powders available today, you can make major with a 115 and still not compress the charge.

True but in a faster burning powder. It was what i eventually ended up using in 9. But the recoil characteristics were different in my hands and eyes.

With all the info on 9maj now Im still open to it. Just weeks ago it crossed my mind to try 9 again in my nxt open gun will see

Edited December 1, 2019 by BoyGlock
Here in the Ph. we have people paid to pick up brass and set targets.

[BoyGlock]

I think my point is less on cost and convenience and more on workability and performance. cannot compare apples to oranges
Feels a bit out of topic here

[falconpilot]

I’ve always used around 7.0 grains of WAC in my 9 major loads under a MG124...going make me look and measure, but I’m pretty certain this is not a compressed load..

Edited December 2, 2019 by falconpilot

[Hi-Power Jack]

11 hours ago, falconpilot said:

 7.0 grains of WAC under a MG124. I’m pretty certain this is not a compressed load..

 

It's not.

[lacivilian]

So what is keeping the top guys from switching to 9major then? Most of them do shoot 30k+ a year and mostly all of the top 16 guys at Nationals shot 38SC/38TJ/38S. Why have they not seen the benefits of 9major but everyone else on the internet thinks they have.

[Wvaughn7]

2 hours ago, lacivilian said:

So what is keeping the top guys from switching to 9major then? Most of them do shoot 30k+ a year and mostly all of the top 16 guys at Nationals shot 38SC/38TJ/38S. Why have they not seen the benefits of 9major but everyone else on the internet thinks they have.

I don’t think anyone is saying 9Major is outright better than the 38 variants, but if you are finishing top 16 at Nationals you aren’t worried about the brass cost as someone else is picking that tab up for you most likely.
 

Admittedly I’m cheap and won’t pay the price for 38SC brass even after dumping many thousands in a gun and gear so I shoot 9Major. I’m also cheap enough to scrounge range brass and have rounded up 10k+ rounds of 9mm without ever paying a single penny. In the same time I think I have collected less than 20 rounds of either 38S/38SC. 
 

I can shoot a match and then if I feel like it afterwards pick up ten times the brass that I shot for the day, whereas the one guy that runs 38SC here is searching for his brass almost as fast as it comes out of the gun. 

[lacivilian]

20 minutes ago, Wvaughn7 said:

I don’t think anyone is saying 9Major is outright better than the 38 variants, but if you are finishing top 16 at Nationals you aren’t worried about the brass cost as someone else is picking that tab up for you most likely.
 

Admittedly I’m cheap and won’t pay the price for 38SC brass even after dumping many thousands in a gun and gear so I shoot 9Major. I’m also cheap enough to scrounge range brass and have rounded up 10k+ rounds of 9mm without ever paying a single penny. In the same time I think I have collected less than 20 rounds of either 38S/38SC. 
 

I can shoot a match and then if I feel like it afterwards pick up ten times the brass that I shot for the day, whereas the one guy that runs 38SC here is searching for his brass almost as fast as it comes out of the gun. 

I agree with this 100%. I have an open gun in each caliber. I can get more free 9mm brass a year than I can shoot. I also am not naive in thinking every piece of 38SC brass I shoot is losing $0.16 because I recover 99% of the pieces in practice and can pick up what I shoot in a local match due to a couple other local Super Comp shooters. I see no cons to either economically. I do however see that picking up brass may seem like a pain in the ass to some. 

[CHA-LEE]

All of the 9 Major lovers need to include lost match fee's and travel expenses associated with the reduced reliability of 9 major vs 38SC. 9 Major is "Cheap" until you start donating match fees and travel expenses because its unreliable. There is no denying the fact that 9 Major has much worse feeding and extraction reliability than 38 Super Comp. No to mention all of the additional head ache of sorting and inspecting the 9mm brass to eliminate all of the crappy brass.

 

I have seen plenty of 9 Major open shooters waste thousands of dollars in match fee's and travel expenses while battling gun and ammo issues directly related to 9 Major ammo. This really comes down to a risk vs reward situation.

[zzt]

15 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

There is no denying the fact that 9 Major has much worse feeding and extraction reliability than 38 Super Comp. No to mention all of the additional head ache of sorting and inspecting the 9mm brass to eliminate all of the crappy brass.

 

This is exactly what I heard when  was deciding the caliber of my last Open gun.  9MM kaboom.  Won't eject under a frame mounted slide ride.  You'll spend the first six months discovering and correcting problems.  Then there are the mags.  Etc., etc.  I agonized over the decision for two years before I decided to go 9mm.

 

I thought, okay, I'll build one and just shoot minor out of it, especially since one buddy couldn't get enough 3N38 in the case to make major with 115s.  So I built it using the best parts, fitted everything and went shooting.  From day one that pistol ran 100%.  I discovered Major Pistol powder, so I loaded 115s to major.  I've shot 7000 so far this year at USPSA matches without a single failure of any kind.  I also shot 3000 minor rounds for SCSA with no issues, after I learned I needed 140PF for minor to work with a 7 lb. spring.  So I think the 9mm haters are just regurgitating old info.  I talked to Dan Bedell and several other custom builders, and all of them warned away from 9mm major and vertical sliderides.  I told Dan I wanted to use a reflex sight, and he said that should work.  I shoot with a lot of other Open shooters shooting 9mm major.  A couple are Ms.  None of them have any problems.  A lot of makes are represented, including a Limcat, Akai and a Cheely.  I don't know who built the others, because I don't recognize them.  They all run, so a lot of people must have figured out how to make 9mm Open guns run.

 

Brass:  I buy fully processed once-fired brass where all the stepped cases and junk have been weeded out.  I no longer shoot major matches.  If I did and was spending $2k on fees, lodging, airfare, etc., you can be sure I'd follow Adam's (Atlas Guns) advice.  Only shoot new Starline brass for major matches.

 

Now, all that being said, if my ammo was provided for me, I'd be shooting 38SC, because of capacity, and there are fewer things to go wrong.

 

Magazines:  My MBX 155s and 170s function flawlessly with 9mm, so I don't know what the issue is there.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'm a low B shooter, and I don't need the miniscule advantage of .38 SC.

 

A local M is still using 9mm Major - he doesn't suffer from it - I've never

seen him with a feeding problem.

[CHA-LEE]

7 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

This is exactly what I heard when  was deciding the caliber of my last Open gun.  9MM kaboom.  Won't eject under a frame mounted slide ride.  You'll spend the first six months discovering and correcting problems.  Then there are the mags.  Etc., etc.  I agonized over the decision for two years before I decided to go 9mm.

 

I thought, okay, I'll build one and just shoot minor out of it, especially since one buddy couldn't get enough 3N38 in the case to make major with 115s.  So I built it using the best parts, fitted everything and went shooting.  From day one that pistol ran 100%.  I discovered Major Pistol powder, so I loaded 115s to major.  I've shot 7000 so far this year at USPSA matches without a single failure of any kind.  I also shot 3000 minor rounds for SCSA with no issues, after I learned I needed 140PF for minor to work with a 7 lb. spring.  So I think the 9mm haters are just regurgitating old info.  I talked to Dan Bedell and several other custom builders, and all of them warned away from 9mm major and vertical sliderides.  I told Dan I wanted to use a reflex sight, and he said that should work.  I shoot with a lot of other Open shooters shooting 9mm major.  A couple are Ms.  None of them have any problems.  A lot of makes are represented, including a Limcat, Akai and a Cheely.  I don't know who built the others, because I don't recognize them.  They all run, so a lot of people must have figured out how to make 9mm Open guns run.

 

Brass:  I buy fully processed once-fired brass where all the stepped cases and junk have been weeded out.  I no longer shoot major matches.  If I did and was spending $2k on fees, lodging, airfare, etc., you can be sure I'd follow Adam's (Atlas Guns) advice.  Only shoot new Starline brass for major matches.

 

Now, all that being said, if my ammo was provided for me, I'd be shooting 38SC, because of capacity, and there are fewer things to go wrong.

 

Magazines:  My MBX 155s and 170s function flawlessly with 9mm, so I don't know what the issue is there.

 

You are the exception to the rule because you actually know how these guns work and build you own guns. 90% of the Open shooters out there don't even know how to tune something simply like an extractor or magazine feed lips. 99% of them don't know how to build and troubleshoot their own gun. The vast majority of Open shooters out there don't have the mechanical knowledge or troubleshooting skills to keep on top of a 9 Major setup to make it reliable. If that wasn't the true we wouldn't have endless "Why is my gun jamming?" threads on this very forum. 

 

Your situation is very similar to how Auto Mechanics can get away with having daily driver that is what others would consider an unreliable POS. But that POS works great for them because they know exactly how to PROACTIVELY keep that ride running with minimal drama.

[zzt]

2 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

The vast majority of Open shooters out there don't have the mechanical knowledge or troubleshooting skills to keep on top of a 9 Major setup to make it reliable.

 

Not trying to be argumentative, but cannot that also be said of 38S/SC Open shooters?

[EEH]

I’m glad someone knows it all

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, EEH said:

I’m glad someone knows it all

No kidding! I have zero problems with two 9MAJOR guns. Do they have sub 1pound triggers? No. Are there flashier guns out there? Sure 

  I guess my Cheely guns are just built right? Because they run fine when I do my part and feed them good ammo. Between Matt and a great local smith I really don’t need to know what makes them tick. And I, as well as every other 2011 shooter I know, certainly knows how to adjust mag feed lips. 

[lacivilian]

I have found with my guns that the most important part of having a 9major gun to work consistently is not having an extended ejector and continually checking that the extractor has not lost tension. A few builders these days like to build guns with an extended ejector which does fine in 38 guns even with mounts that extend past the barrel hood. With 9mm I want the case to start ejection much later and avoid the optic mount at all costs. Run a dot with a small footprint, a bobbed ejector, and be proactive with ejector tuning. These are key to having a reliable 9major gun from my experience.