38 SC cost analysis

[Balakay]

Lots of discussion regarding 9 major vs 38 Supercomp

I made some assumptions based on how I practice and seriously overestimated the annual volumes and major match participation.  If you use a big tarp to catch brass or a "brass chute" recovery is not that difficult.  I shoot locals with 2 other Supercomp shooters.  We all pick up and pool our brass, then divide at the end of the match.

 

My conclusions (nothing new but at least it is quantified)  

If you never want to pick up brass, shoot 9 major.

If you can get free once-fired brass from and indoor range, shoot 9 major  

If you make a little effort to pick it up, the cost of 38 SuperComp is similar to buying processed 9mm brass 

 

[aandabooks]

9 minutes ago, Balakay said:

Lots of discussion regarding 9 major vs 38 Supercomp

I made some assumptions based on how I practice and seriously overestimated the annual volumes and major match participation.  If you use a big tarp to catch brass or a "brass chute" recovery is not that difficult.  I shoot locals with 2 other Supercomp shooters.  We all pick up and pool our brass, then divide at the end of the match.

 

My conclusions (nothing new but at least it is quantified)  

If you never want to pick up brass, shoot 9 major.

If you can get free once-fired brass from and indoor range, shoot 9 major  

If you make a little effort to pick it up, the cost of 38 SuperComp is similar to buying processed 9mm brass 

 

 

Correct.  The bullet, powder and primer cost is roughly the same either way.  The cost difference comes in the brass and how available it is.  I can get once fired clean brass in 9mm for $20/k.  I've never tried to buy once fired .38SC but have also never seen it in any quantity.  A buddy of mine does shoot it and pays $150/k from Starline for virgin brass.  He is also scrounging brass back at every local match and level II & up matches costs him that much extra because he can't pickup his brass.

 

That is where the true cost difference comes in.  I shoot my matches and don't care about the brass too much.  200 rounds left on the ground costs me $4.  My buddy $30.  While he is scrounging around for brass, I'm reloading mags and resetting the stage for the next shooter.

[36873687]

I’d rather leave my 9 major than worry about picking it up at local match. 

[zzt]

At all the Level I matches I shoot, you can hang around until after tear down and scrounge for brass.  With everything gone it is very time consuming.  Plus it is hard to find on the ranges that are grass.  No thanks.  So that would cost me $1600 per year for 38SC vs. $380 for fully processed once fired 9mm brass.  No thanks.  That delta buys be 10,000 115 HAPs and half the powder I'll use in a year.

[Balakay]

40K pieces of once fired 9mm processed brass costs you $380?? Sign me up for that

11 minutes ago, zzt said:

At all the Level I matches I shoot, you can hang around until after tear down and scrounge for brass.  With everything gone it is very time consuming.  Plus it is hard to find on the ranges that are grass.  No thanks.  So that would cost me $1600 per year for 38SC vs. $380 for fully processed once fired 9mm brass.  No thanks.  That delta buys be 10,000 115 HAPs and half the powder I'll use in a year.

 

Assuming the once fired processed stuff is ~ $0.04 per piece, 40K comes out to $1600

[Balakay]

1 hour ago, 36873687 said:

I’d rather leave my 9 major than worry about picking it up at local match. 

This is the worst part for me. 

Using the same numbers as above, even if you leave all the local match brass on the ground and recover the practice brass at the same rate, the cost jumps to $0.051 per piece of brass.  

 

YMMV based on your ratio of practice brass (recoverable): match brass (lost)

[zzt]

2 minutes ago, Balakay said:

40K pieces of once fired 9mm processed brass costs you $380?? Sign me up for that

 

Assuming the once fired processed stuff is ~ $0.04 per piece, 40K comes out to $1600

 

Where did you get 40k from?  I leave about 10,000 cases on the ground each year at matches.  So Starline 38SC would cost $1,600 shipped.  Fully processed costs me $380.

[Balakay]

6 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Where did you get 40k from? 

I guess I misunderstood your #s.

40K is from the second line of my cost analysis

 

BTW if you bought the brass from Precision Delta you would save $150.  

Edited November 29, 2019 by Balakay

[zzt]

5 minutes ago, Balakay said:

I guess I misunderstood your #s.

40K is from the second line of my cost analysis

 

BTW if you bought the brass from Precision Delta you would save $145.  

 

PD brass is no where near as good as the stuff I buy from Ammobrass LLC.  The Ammobrass stuff is FULLY processed, not just cleaned and inspected.  They resize and decap, swage the primer pocket, roll size, clean in SS media, dry and apply a light coat of wax. 100% of it drops into and out of my Shockbottle chamber checker, and it sails through the press like butter.

Edited November 29, 2019 by zzt

[Balakay]

4 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

PD brass is no where near as good as the stuff I buy from Ammobrass LLC.  The Ammobrass stuff is FULLY processed, not just cleaned and inspected.  They resize and decap, swage the primer pocket, roll size, clean in SS media, dry and apply a light coat of wax. 100% of it drops into and out of my Shockbottle chamber checker, and it sails through the press like butter.

I was talking about the price of supercomp brass fromprecision Delta. It is $145 per thousand as opposed to 160 per thousand from Starline.  If and when I make the change to 9 major, I will definitely give ammobrass a look. Thx

[zzt]

21 minutes ago, Balakay said:

I was talking about the price of supercomp brass fromprecision Delta. It is $145 per thousand as opposed to 160 per thousand from Starline.  If and when I make the change to 9 major, I will definitely give ammobrass a look. Thx

 

As far as I'm concerned, there are only two reasons to consider 38SC.  One is case capacity.  The other is straight case walls.  Everyone told me how hard it was to get the tapered wall 9mm to eject properly from under a frame mounted dot.  I had no problem at all.  Now for case capacity.  I'll give you that one.  You can fit an ungodly amount of powder in there, plus a small refrigerator.  If you love light bullets and 3N38, 38SC is for you.

 

That being said, with dense slow powders like AA7 and Major Pistol around, 38SC has been falling out of favor quickly.  My 9mm major load of 10.2gr MP under a 115 HAP at 1.161" OAL does everything I need it to.  So I really believe those still pushing 38SC either don't know about current 9mm major, or they get their brass/ammo for free.  It is really astonishing how much misinformation there is out there.

[aandabooks]

If you notice the used prices on .38 open guns it is apparent that they are falling out of favor.  When I was building out my first open gun the choice was easy for 9mm especially since I was doing it on a CZ TS frame. 

 

Plus, I don't want to turn into a range chicken.  When it is 90+ in Central Illinois and I have sweat going from every pore on my body I want to be able to walk away from the brass and consider it money well spent. 

[falconpilot]

Aside from cost analysis, is there really any benefit of 38SC over 9major? I know this can start a huge debate, but lets just say that both guns run perfectly - which I've found that a 9 runs just as good as a 38sc in my experience if you've got good tuned mags. I know a lot of the GM and top shooters seem to prefer SC, some claiming its more reliable, some say cause it can be loaded to shooter flatter. I've often wondered if they had to buy the brass(and they may), if we'd be seeing a lot more guys shooting 9...I'm lazy and hate picking up brass..been shooting 9 for years now..

[zzt]

12 hours ago, falconpilot said:

Aside from cost analysis, is there really any benefit of 38SC over 9major?

 

Yes, but a slight one.  It is case capacity.  The large, relative to 9mm, case allows you to run gobs of bulky, slow powders like 3N38 without compression.  So you can generate more gas to power the poppels and comp, plus you can have more of them.  The trade off is loudness and violence.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Since I am shooting at c 62%, I figure there are a LOT more things I should

be doing to get to 70% than switch to a .38 SC.

 

Granted, there is a slight benefit to the longer brass, BUT anything else will

get me higher on the pole than switching calibers.     

[BoyGlock]

How about pressure, compressed vs  non compressed loads?

[falconpilot]

A compressed load will be a higher pressure load...generally speaking...obviously which powder it is is a key factor..generally slower powders which we are talking about in 38sc end up compressed..such a load can lead to high es/sd 

[zzt]

8 hours ago, BoyGlock said:

How about pressure, compressed vs  non compressed loads?

 

Virtually the same as long as we are talking the same OAL.  Seating a bullet deeper will increase pressure.  Also, I find it very, very hard to believe that any non-dangerous load in 38SC is compressed.  Geez, the case is .146" longer than a 9mm, and it isn't tapered.  A typical major load of 3N38 (a bulky powder) is 10gr under a 124.  It is not compressed.  You can fit 10gr in a 9mm case.

 

Es and SD tend to go down with compressed loads, or non-compressed with a full case.  The reason is many, if not most powders are position sensitive.  Take a 45 ACp round as an example.  It is a large case with only a little powder in in most times.  My bullseye load is 3.4gr e3 under a 200gr.  I could double charge + and not compress.  Many other fast powders are the same.  To find out if you powder is position sensitive, do the following.  Load a mag and shoot 10 shots across the chrono, from a rest.  Now load 10 more rounds, but tilt the muzzle up before each shot to settle the powder.  The carefully lower the muzzle and shoot. You will see a decrease of ES and SD.  How much depends on the powder.  Some powders are insensitive.  Others- a lot.

Edited November 30, 2019 by zzt

[Matt1]

We get ripped for all brass down under but 38SC is the worst. Virtually zero fired options and new is hideously expensive.

Regardless lots of Open shooters use it but 9mm is starting to make its presence felt.

I shoot 9mm and love not having to worry about brass at matches (even at AUD$10/100, that’s about US$7/100).




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[Matt1]

There is a view that 38SC is slight more reliable and the rounds stack a little better in hicap mags. We can’t use them here so no real point.


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[dansedgli]

Lots of people here use regular 38 super too, not super comp so that kills the better feeding idea. My 9mm feeds from the mags more smoothly than semi rimmed 38 Super did. 

 

If you shoot super comp only you need to sort almost by headstamp which sucks. 

 

My 38 gun was the tiniest bit flatter than my 9mm but it was ported whereas my 9mm is not. I sold my super cases and it paid for half the 9mm gun. The choice was easy when AP100 dried up and the drums of autocomp became available.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by dansedgli

[BoyGlock]

How true is it that the min. PF for Open was reduced to accomodate 9maj, to make it safe to shoot?

 

In my place 9 and .38s brass are not free and both are picked up to be reloaded for X times. I used to load 9 maj before I did .38s and the difference in loading and shooting them are more than noticeable. The experience made me choose .38s. Like, a 9 compressed load needs more crimp so it wont “grow” tall. This combination would make an already high pressure cartridge on the edge of safety me thinks. If I will want to use 9 in open it will be in minor load. Just my 02. 

[zzt]

Not trying to talk you back into 9mm BG, but with the powders available today, you can make major with a 115 and still not compress the charge.

[BoyGlock]

36 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Virtually the same as long as we are talking the same OAL.  Seating a bullet deeper will increase pressure.  Also, I find it very, very hard to believe that any non-dangerous load in 38SC is compressed.  Geez, the case is .146" longer than a 9mm, and it isn't tapered.  A typical major load of 3N38 (a bulky powder) is 10gr under a 124.  It is not compressed.  You can fit 10gr in a 9mm case.

 

Es and SD tend to go down with compressed loads, or non-compressed with a full case.  The reason is many, if not most powders are position sensitive.  Take a 45 ACp round as an example.  It is a large case with only a little powder in in most times.  My bullseye load is 3.4gr e3 under a 200gr.  I could double charge + and not compress.  Many other fast powders are the same.  To find out if you powder is position sensitive, do the following.  Load a mag and shoot 10 shots across the chrono, from a rest.  Now load 10 more rounds, but tilt the muzzle up before each shot to settle the powder.  The carefully lower the muzzle and shoot. You will see a decrease of ES and SD.  How much depends on the powder.  Some powders are insensitive.  Others- a lot.

Its virtual .38s in 9 brass you are saying. If thats the case why have a compressed load in 9 and non in .38s? I load 10grn of z7 (not common powder in your place most probanly) in 38s w/ enough space to spare for the head. I cant say and do it in 9. 

[zzt]

1 minute ago, BoyGlock said:

Its virtual .38s in 9 brass you are saying. If thats the case why have a compressed load in 9 and non in .38s? I load 10grn of z7 (not common powder in your place most probanly) in 38s w/ enough space to spare for the head. I cant say and do it in 9. 

 

I say it again.  With the proper powder choice you make 9mm major without compressing the powder.  For instance, my 9mm major load uses 10.2gr Majot Pistol powder under a 115 HAP @ 1.161" OAL  168PF, SD 4.9, no compression, standard crimp.  Major Pistol is the US Canister version of Lovex 37.1.