Order of Finish vs. Random Drawing Prize Tables

[Ssanders224]

7 minutes ago, Tanders said:

Since the vast majority of match prizes are sponsor-donated, you aren't paying a GM to win the match; your match fee goes toward paying for supplies and compensating the staff, something from which every participant in the match benefits.  If a GM gets a big-ticket item for winning the match, it doesn't cost you a dime.

 

Most of the guys who win sectionals and area matches do not have a sponsor who is giving them anything more than a discount code for a product.  These guys are winning because they sink more time into skill development than the other competitors, not because they have some "sugar daddy" sponsor who's paying for their ammo and match fees or because they are born with natural talent.  This investment of time and resources should be rewarded since it encourages others to make the same investment and therefore helps to improve the talent pool of the sport.  I don't see how that could be a bad thing.

 

This. 

[RJH]

I think i figured out my way of thinking on this and why straight up order of finish seems the wrong way to me.  I have only come to this conclusion and reasoning recently after thinking about this thread a bit, kudos on the thread topic.

 

I have no issue with HOA getting something nice but the main problem with straight up order of finish is this:  I am a at best an A class shooter, but in my current division and really all but one I am a b class shooter.  My thoughts are, i really don't deserve anything for beating c and d class shooters, because i should beat them and deserve no reward for it.  I look at GMs etc the same way, they should beat %95 of the field just by showing up.  IF we are going to only do order of finish, then we need to do away with classes, and that would be fine, but that is not what we have now.  I recently swapped divisions in archery because no one locally could compete with me in the division i was in, therefore it wasn't really a competition it was just me beating people i should beat, and wanting an award for that is kinda ghey.

 

So i ask Tanders and Sanders (and anyone else really);  What class are y'all and is there a class that you shoot against that you feel that you should no longer get rewarded for beating?

Edited July 4, 2019 by RJH

[Steve RA]

Jack, it's Funk and Wagnalls !         

[wtturn]

I think i figured out my way of thinking on this and why straight up order of finish seems the wrong way to me.  I have only come to this conclusion and reasoning recently after thinking about this thread a bit, kudos on the thread topic.
 
I have no issue with HOA getting something nice but the main problem with straight up order of finish is this:  I am a at best an A class shooter, but in my current division and really all but one I am a b class shooter.  My thoughts are, i really don't deserve anything for beating c and d class shooters, because i should beat them and deserve no reward for it.  I look at GMs etc the same way, they should beat %95 of the field just by showing up.  IF we are going to only do order of finish, then we need to do away with classes, and that would be fine, but that is not what we have now.  I recently swapped divisions in archery because no one locally could compete with me in the division i was in, therefore it wasn't really a competition it was just me beating people i should beat, and wanting an award for that is kinda ghey.
 
So i ask Tanders and Sanders (and anyone else really);  What class are y'all and is there a class that you shoot against that you feel that you should no longer get rewarded for beating?

I guess I just have a fundamentally different view of results and what I'm trying to accomplish.

Class is irrelevant. All I care about is finishing as high as possible in the results (winning overall, preferably).

Whether you're A class, or GM, or unclassified, I can't wrap my mind around having any other goal than trying to beat as many other people in my division as possible. That's the essence of sport.

Fixation on class wins and performance relative to class is the reason many people never get any better.

Awarding prizes by order of finish is a stronger incentive for improvement than awarding prizes by some other scheme. Anything else is just participation trophies.

We need to change the culture in this sport to start incentivizing achievement again.

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[Ssanders224]

23 minutes ago, RJH said:

I think i figured out my way of thinking on this and why straight up order of finish seems the wrong way to me.  I have only come to this conclusion and reasoning recently after thinking about this thread a bit, kudos on the thread topic.

 

I have no issue with HOA getting something nice but the main problem with straight up order of finish is this:  I am a at best an A class shooter, but in my current division and really all but one I am a b class shooter.  My thoughts are, i really don't deserve anything for beating c and d class shooters, because i should beat them and deserve no reward for it.  I look at GMs etc the same way, they should beat %95 of the field just by showing up.  IF we are going to only do order of finish, then we need to do away with classes, and that would be fine, but that is not what we have now.  I recently swapped divisions in archery because no one locally could compete with me in the division i was in, therefore it wasn't really a competition it was just me beating people i should beat, and wanting an award for that is kinda ghey.

 

So i ask Tanders and Sanders (and anyone else really);  What class are y'all and is there a class that you shoot against that you feel that you should no longer get rewarded for beating?

 

To be clear, I’m not necessarily advocating order of finish awards. 

 

As you’ll see in my first post here, I’m an advocate for paying the winners (HOA and classes), and the sectional that I help with does just that. 

 

As to your question, I’m a GM. I really only care to be “awarded” if I take HOA, OR there are enough people in my class that 1-3 is awarded. I think your question is the wrong take, as It’s never a question of “who did you beat”, but rather how close was I able to get to the winner.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Ssanders224

[Ssanders224]

6 minutes ago, wtturn said:

Awarding prizes by order of finish is a stronger incentive for improvement than awarding prizes by some other scheme. Anything else is just participation trophies.

We need to change the culture in this sport to start incentivizing achievement again.

 

There is a lot of truth here. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

14 minutes ago, Steve RA said:

Jack, it's Funk and Wagnalls !         

 

Steve, we're probably the only people here who remember Laugh In.      

[Steve RA]

That is probably true !    

[RJH]

29 minutes ago, wtturn said:

I guess I just have a fundamentally different view of results and what I'm trying to accomplish.

Class is irrelevant. All I care about is finishing as high as possible in the results (winning overall, preferably).

Whether you're A class, or GM, or unclassified, I can't wrap my mind around having any other goal than trying to beat as many other people in my division as possible. That's the essence of sport.

Fixation on class wins and performance relative to class is the reason many people never get any better.

Awarding prizes by order of finish is a stronger incentive for improvement than awarding prizes by some other scheme. Anything else is just participation trophies.

We need to change the culture in this sport to start incentivizing achievement again.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
 

 

 

While yes, random draw is kinda participation trophys, going straight order of finish is a great way to cut participation at majors.  Pretty much all other sports  have "classes" in one form or another from pro to hobby, USPSA is a little different because we all shoot at the same match at the same time.  I think that is why it is hard for people to understand sometimes, that without some other "scheme" for awards, the meat of the field will be cut. 

 

 Winning your class is an incentive for achievement, Ricky Bobbying it is just a way to cut participation.  And without A-D shooters, the match will be pretty bare.

 

I am no math whiz, but it is pretty easy to figure there is not much value in paying $150 for 12-14 stages, with no chance of a prize , when for the same money a person can get 50 stages and the same  no chance of a prize at a local.

 

I guess we are different, cause i get no happiness from beating everyone in my division, if everyone i am shooting against sucks

[RJH]

43 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

To be clear, I’m not necessarily advocating order of finish awards. 

 

As you’ll see in my first post here, I’m an advocate for paying the winners (HOA and classes), and the sectional that I help with does just that. 

 

As to your question, I’m a GM. I really only care to be “awarded” if I take HOA, OR there are enough people in my class that 1-3 is awarded. I think your question is the wrong take, as It’s never a question of “who did you beat”, but rather how close was I able to get to the winner.

 

I think we agree way more than we disagree 

[Tanders]

11 minutes ago, Ssanders224 said:

28 minutes ago, RJH said:

So i ask Tanders and Sanders (and anyone else really);  What class are y'all and is there a class that you shoot against that you feel that you should no longer get rewarded for beating?

 

The class system doesn't really provide a good metric for predicting major match results anymore.  The HHF update last year really screwed things up since USPSA decided to raise the HHFs to unattainable levels.  When you couple that with the introduction of programs like the #Winwithwalther "Sandbagger Rewards Program," the class system is pretty much irrelevant.  That being said, I'm M-class, verging on GM.  However, I have no natural ability and I had to work really hard to get where I am.  I'm also poor and made M-class almost completely by dry-firing, so I feel that this is an achievement that is attainable for anyone.

 

I noticed that in most of your posts you have focused primarily on the unfairness of GMs being rewarded for beating up on lower classified shooters.  However, there is also a flipside to rewarding order of finish, and that is the time-honored tradition of shaming grandbaggers.  There is nothing more fun than seeing a bunch of Ms and GMs get whooped by an A-class guy who has been training hard.  That sort of achievement is what I want to see rewarded.  In the event that someone wins their division at a major match, I don't think that they should get a gun or some other nice prize because they dunked on a bunch of B- and C-class guys... I think they should get a gun because they put in more work and did a better job keeping it together than anyone else who showed up that day.  Everybody who entered the match showed up to shoot a competition, not just to have a fun day at the range.  Therefore, the guys who competed the best should be rewarded the best.

[IHAVEGAS]

1 minute ago, Tanders said:

Everybody who entered the match showed up to shoot a competition, not just to have a fun day at the range.

 

Meh, I think 80% or something like that show up strictly to have fun (otherwise we suffer from delusions of grandeur) . Keeping score and challenging yourself makes it more fun, but a fun day at the range is 100% why I go to matches.  

[TonytheTiger]

LOL @ classes.

Maybe the one thing that 3 gun has figured out that USPSA hasn't.

[Tanders]

25 minutes ago, RJH said:

I am no math whiz, but it is pretty easy to figure there is not much value in paying $150 for 12-14 stages, with no chance of a prize , when for the same money a person can get 50 stages and the same  no chance of a prize at a local.

 

I guess we are different, cause i get no happiness from beating everyone in my division, if everyone i am shooting against sucks

I don't think very many people choose to shoot a major match because they have a shot at winning a random gun drawing.  Not very great odds there.

 

I have also never been to a major where everyone in a division sucked (unless it was L10 or Revolver).  However, the quality of prizes for less populated divisions could be adjusted if necessary.

[Tanders]

2 hours ago, Ssanders224 said:

As to your question, I’m a GM.

I just spent 5 minutes Googling you...  You're kind of a baller and I want to be just like you when I grow up.

[Ssanders224]

4 minutes ago, Tanders said:

I just spent 5 minutes Googling you...  You're kind of a baller and I want to be just like you when I grow up.

 

Never grow up! 

[wtturn]

 
 
.  I think that is why it is hard for people to understand sometimes, that without some other "scheme" for awards, the meat of the field will be cut. 
 .
 
I guess we are different, cause i get no happiness from beating everyone in my division, if everyone i am shooting against sucks

I doubt a change in award structure would affect major match participation one iota. People don't attend matches for awards.

How many majors have you attended where everyone in your division "sucks"? You must have a stack of HOA trophies, in that case. That has not been my experience, suffice it to say.

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[Ssanders224]

11 minutes ago, wtturn said:

 

 

I doubt a change in award structure would affect major match participation one iota. People don't attend matches for awards.
 

 

 

This isn’t even something we have to guess at. There’s plenty of data available. Matches all over the country have random typed of prize schedules, and even no prizes at all.  Order or finish prize tables (or “prizes” in general) have little to no bearing on match attendance. 

[wtturn]

 
This isn’t even something we have to guess at. There’s plenty of data available. Matches all over the country have random typed of prize schedules, and even no prizes at all.  Order or finish prize tables (or “prizes” in general) have little to no bearing on match attendance. 

Well put.

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[RJH]

1 hour ago, Ssanders224 said:

 

This isn’t even something we have to guess at. There’s plenty of data available. Matches all over the country have random typed of prize schedules, and even no prizes at all.  Order or finish prize tables (or “prizes” in general) have little to no bearing on match attendance. 

 

23 minutes ago, wtturn said:

Well put.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
 

 

So you are saying random drawing is good to go, right?

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by RJH

[RJH]

2 hours ago, Tanders said:

The class system doesn't really provide a good metric for predicting major match results anymore.  The HHF update last year really screwed things up since USPSA decided to raise the HHFs to unattainable levels.  When you couple that with the introduction of programs like the #Winwithwalther "Sandbagger Rewards Program," the class system is pretty much irrelevant.  That being said, I'm M-class, verging on GM.  However, I have no natural ability and I had to work really hard to get where I am.  I'm also poor and made M-class almost completely by dry-firing, so I feel that this is an achievement that is attainable for anyone.

 

I noticed that in most of your posts you have focused primarily on the unfairness of GMs being rewarded for beating up on lower classified shooters.  However, there is also a flipside to rewarding order of finish, and that is the time-honored tradition of shaming grandbaggers.  There is nothing more fun than seeing a bunch of Ms and GMs get whooped by an A-class guy who has been training hard.  That sort of achievement is what I want to see rewarded.  In the event that someone wins their division at a major match, I don't think that they should get a gun or some other nice prize because they dunked on a bunch of B- and C-class guys... I think they should get a gun because they put in more work and did a better job keeping it together than anyone else who showed up that day.  Everybody who entered the match showed up to shoot a competition, not just to have a fun day at the range.  Therefore, the guys who competed the best should be rewarded the best.

 

Class system has always been pretty close for me, but maybe you are correct since the restructure. Congrats on your M card, no easy feat.  

 

But maybe I am not getting my point across, I am not saying it is unfair for GMs to beat up on lower class shooters, just that it seems silly for a GM to be overly proud and want and some high end prize for beating 100 shooters when 80 of them are A class and below.  That said I definitely want HOA shooters to get the best prizes at a match, but buy just going straight down the list from 1-100 and 25-100 getting nothing, i think you will end up hurting participation in the long run.  Since numbers 25-100 paid for the major part of the match, giving them a shot at a prize (even though everyone still won't get one) seems like a good way to keep the majority of the customers happy.   Golf has handicap, Sporting clays has the Lewis system, etc., there is a reason why.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, wtturn said:

 

 

I doubt a change in award structure would affect major match participation one iota. People don't attend matches for awards.

How many majors have you attended where everyone in your division "sucks"? You must have a stack of HOA trophies, in that case. That has not been my experience, suffice it to say.

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I am one of the guys that suck haha, but i have been to majors where one shooter (a nationally known and sponsered GM) wipes the floor with everyone else.  Do you think he went home and was like, "I kicked the crap out of those D class guys" while smoking his victory cigar?  I doubt it, he probably didn't even know they were there,  but he might have been happy he kicked the crap out of a few GMs, and he should be

[RJH]

2 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

LOL @ classes.

Maybe the one thing that 3 gun has figured out that USPSA hasn't.

 

 

Once the 3 gun prize tables that went back 150 places dried up here, the three gun scene seemed to slow down too.  Has it where you are at?  You know those 150 place prize tables are almost like a participation trophy if you think about it.  Also didn't 3GN (is that even still a thing?) start doing classifiers?  I honestly can't remember

[motosapiens]

 

15 hours ago, louu said:

 I know a lot of people that agree with me (some not for the same reasons) and won't go at a random draw match because they work hard to be a good shooter. 

 

 

the fastest way to ruin a sport for me is to start chasing prizes. I did it briefly when i was racing mtn bikes, going to races where I could win stuff. i quickly realized that attitude sucked all the fun out of the sport. So then I just went to races with the best competition and most challenging and fun courses.  I pretty much see shooting the same way. If you're shooting to win prizes, you're doing it entirely wrong imho. 

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 Winning your class is an incentive for achievement, 

 

 

I understand that some people feel that way, but I have no idea why. To me, 'winning' a class really just means you didn't work quite as hard as all the other guys that got better enough to move into the next class. lame, really. If you're working hard and improving, I see nothing wrong with noticing (once) that you finally beat all those other guys in your class, but I've always found more motivation and reward in looking at the guys in the next class up, and looking at the overall.  The idea of classes makes sense to me only in that it gives you a ballpark guesstimate of the ability of shooters you don't know when you see them in the results. 

 

But the great thing is, my viewpoint is entirely compatible with everyone else's. You can give prizes based on random draw, and I will be happy, because I came to shoot a good match against quality competition. You can give prizes based on overall finish, and I'll be happy, because I came to shoot a good match against quality competition. You can give prizes to sandbaggers who 'won' their class, and I'll be happy, because I came to shoot a good match against quality competition.  For what I spend to travel to a match, I can easily buy my own prizes.