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Order of Finish vs. Random Drawing Prize Tables


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25 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

So, you are OK with participation awards, glad you finally admitted it

paying to other places besides just the winner is not a participation award. Are you calling an olympic bronze or silver medal a 'participation award'. If you are, your argument doesn't make actual sense to humans.

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Bottom line is I'm only arguing to argue because it's a slow day at work. Raffles at major events are fine with me. I won a dillon 650 and a nice 1911 at random draws in the last couple years.

 

Distribution of donated merchandise by order of finish is fine with me. I won a nice 1911 and $700-800 cash in the last year in order of finish matches.

 

No prizes are fine with me. I had a great time and learned alot at some matches where I took home trophies, and I had a great time and learned alot at some matches where I didn't take home trophies.

 

the only things that aren't fine with me are poorly thought out stages, bad RO's, or other situations that lead to a lack of competitive equity. See you guys at the range.

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2 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

Im okay with performance awards, and only to a certain point. Not the same as participation awards. 

Are you perhaps not a very good shooter and you're very bitter about it? Because thats how you're coming across.

 

 

I have already told exactly what kind  of shooter I am, A-B, but to call anything but first something other than a participation award is pretty hypocritical.  If you (and a couple of others ) are focused on performance based awards, HOA is really all that matter, as in if you ain't first you are last, and anything other than first is by your definition (basically) a participation award.  If you notice whether using your definition of order of finish, or my HOA takes all, i end up with nothing, so either way matters not to me, but, when you (assuming you finish in the top ten or so) end up with nothing , you seem bothered by it.

 

PS: I have never won anything from random draw, and the greatest thing i have ever won at a match is a match bump

 

PPS performance awards = winner wins and everyone else loses.  I am actually fine with this, but it seems most worried about performance based awards are not

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2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

paying to other places besides just the winner is not a participation award. Are you calling an olympic bronze or silver medal a 'participation award'. If you are, your argument doesn't make actual sense to humans.

 

 

Actually i think classes and the way it is set up now is fine, but for the people griping about "performance based awards" should realize that anything other than first is actually a participation trophy.  If me and you arm wrestle and i lose should i get a trophy, i mean, i am second after all....

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2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Bottom line is I'm only arguing to argue because it's a slow day at work. Raffles at major events are fine with me. I won a dillon 650 and a nice 1911 at random draws in the last couple years.

 

Distribution of donated merchandise by order of finish is fine with me. I won a nice 1911 and $700-800 cash in the last year in order of finish matches.

 

No prizes are fine with me. I had a great time and learned alot at some matches where I took home trophies, and I had a great time and learned alot at some matches where I didn't take home trophies.

 

the only things that aren't fine with me are poorly thought out stages, bad RO's, or other situations that lead to a lack of competitive equity. See you guys at the range.

 

 

Wow, we agree again,  as in we just want to shoot good stages, although i ain't ever won crap at random draws

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23 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Actually i think classes and the way it is set up now is fine, but for the people griping about "performance based awards" should realize that anything other than first is actually a participation trophy.  If me and you arm wrestle and i lose should i get a trophy, i mean, i am second after all....

 

Umm. cool. It sounds like you are saying only first place matters. I think that's a pretty toxic and destructive mindset, but the motivations of others have always been a mystery to me.

 

If only 2 people arm-wrestle, then 1 wins and 1 loses. If 64 people arm-wrestle in a single-elimination tournament, then the one who makes it to the finals and then loses after winning 5 elimination matches has done pretty darned well, and should probably be recognized, like they are in pretty much every sport that has ever existed, anywhere in the world (not including roman gladiators).

 

At any rate, as I mentioned earlier, there is no defense in shooting (or bobsledding). it's not me vs you like in 1 on 1 basketball, or fencing. It's each of us in our own struggle against the course of fire. Winning is cool, but unless you are one of a handful of top shooters in the world, you only win because the better shooters are doing something else that weekend. When I win, rather than being all happy that I 'won' because JJ and Nils and Eric and a few local GM's didn't show up, I still evaluate my performance based on the performance itself. How close was I to the open winner that consistently wins around here. How far ahead of the next shooters was I, compared to how I normally do against them. Did everything I've been working on come together? Or did I expose new low-hanging fruit to work on next week. I think this sport is a lot more complicated and interesting and rewarding than just trying to 'win', without regard for the quality of competition or for your own performance.

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43 minutes ago, RJH said:

if you ain't first you are last, and anything other than first is by your definition (basically) a participation award. 

Show me where I said this. You're the only person in this thread that keeps putting these words in peoples mouths.

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4 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Actually no,, the match expenses were about $100,,, 80% were taxed the second hundred, so a handful of sweety pies could get bigger prizes... 
Um yep no thanks.

A bold and controversial statement like this requires some form of proof. Until then my BS-ometer is pegged in the red.

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18 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Umm. cool. It sounds like you are saying only first place matters. I think that's a pretty toxic and destructive mindset, but the motivations of others have always been a mystery to me.

 

If only 2 people arm-wrestle, then 1 wins and 1 loses. If 64 people arm-wrestle in a single-elimination tournament, then the one who makes it to the finals and then loses after winning 5 elimination matches has done pretty darned well, and should probably be recognized, like they are in pretty much every sport that has ever existed, anywhere in the world (not including roman gladiators).

 

At any rate, as I mentioned earlier, there is no defense in shooting (or bobsledding). it's not me vs you like in 1 on 1 basketball, or fencing. It's each of us in our own struggle against the course of fire. Winning is cool, but unless you are one of a handful of top shooters in the world, you only win because the better shooters are doing something else that weekend. When I win, rather than being all happy that I 'won' because JJ and Nils and Eric and a few local GM's didn't show up, I still evaluate my performance based on the performance itself. How close was I to the open winner that consistently wins around here. How far ahead of the next shooters was I, compared to how I normally do against them. Did everything I've been working on come together? Or did I expose new low-hanging fruit to work on next week. I think this sport is a lot more complicated and interesting and rewarding than just trying to 'win', without regard for the quality of competition or for your own performance.

 

We still seem to be %100 in agreement.  Some of my post are being a little facetious and you may be misconstruing them a little.  Internet and such, that is how it goes

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15 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

Show me where I said this. You're the only person in this thread that keeps putting these words in peoples mouths.

 

 

I took some liberties, haha.  If we are going strictly performance based (which you seem to endorse), anything other than first is really nothing more than a participation award.  You can try to say it ain't, but it is.  If you ain't first you are last

 

I am not putting words in anyone's mouth.  but it seems that some here want performance based prized as long as they are in the group that gets the prizes.  I am simply stating that without the %80-90 that have no chance of straight up winning a prize don't show up, matches won't happen.  Random prizes help keep that MOST important base showing up at matches.  Once again, i have never won a random prize at a match.....

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3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

I took some liberties, haha.  If we are going strictly performance based (which you seem to endorse), anything other than first is really nothing more than a participation award.  You can try to say it ain't, but it is.  If you ain't first you are last

 

I am not putting words in anyone's mouth.  but it seems that some here want performance based prized as long as they are in the group that gets the prizes.  I am simply stating that without the %80-90 that have no chance of straight up winning a prize don't show up, matches won't happen.  Random prizes help keep that MOST important base showing up at matches.  Once again, i have never won a random prize at a match.....

I already said if there's one prize HOA deserves it most, and anything after that should descend in order of value. I also said I don't care if there's zero prizes or if they go way down the field. I also said I don't care if the small number of relatively low value prizes at my locals goes by random draw if thats what the donors want and it keeps the match populous enough to be worth having. 

 

I don't agree with random draw at majors. If you want to come to the big leagues thats great, just understand that if you don't bring your big league skills that you won't be recognized by trophies or valuable prizes. I've had this same opinion for as long as I can remember, whether or not I was in the running for a prize. I've looked at prize tables I had no shot at and it's never made me regret going to a match. I can't fathom how 80% of shooters would suddenly move on if they knew they weren't getting a prize. You know you can buy all those things with less time and effort invested than it takes to shoot a major right?

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2 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

I already said if there's one prize HOA deserves it most, and anything after that should descend in order of value. I also said I don't care if there's zero prizes or if they go way down the field. I also said I don't care if the small number of relatively low value prizes at my locals goes by random draw if thats what the donors want and it keeps the match populous enough to be worth having. 

 

I don't agree with random draw at majors. If you want to come to the big leagues thats great, just understand that if you don't bring your big league skills that you won't be recognized by trophies or valuable prizes. I've had this same opinion for as long as I can remember, whether or not I was in the running for a prize. I've looked at prize tables I had no shot at and it's never made me regret going to a match. I can't fathom how 80% of shooters would suddenly move on if they knew they weren't getting a prize. You know you can buy all those things with less time and effort invested than it takes to shoot a major right?

 

 

I actually agree with most of this. But a major is not the big leagues. What you seem to be missing  is that if the scrubs don't  show up, it will not be worth a directors time to host a major, since a huge portion of the match is paid for by the scrubs.  If you want a match to shoot, then tossing some random prizes to people who pay for the LARGEST PORTION OF THE MATCH but have no chance of winning  will help to make that match happen

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9 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

When? I said classes were stupid. I said random draw at majors is not my preference.

 

 

I extrapolated brah, was what i said actually incorrect, if so please clarify.  internet is a pain in the butt.  We would have had this all figured out in a minute or two just BSing after a match

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3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

I actually agree with most of this. But a major is not the big leagues. What you seem to be missing  is that if the scrubs don't  show up, it will not be worth a directors time to host a major, since a huge portion of the match is paid for by the scrubs.  If you want a match to shoot, then tossing some random prizes to people who pay for the LARGEST PORTION OF THE MATCH but have no chance of winning  will help to make that match happen

You may very well be right, and that may be the reality of the situation. But I'm going to keep disagreeing with the principle of it. If a shot at a random draw prize is what keeps people coming back then I guess I'm just very disappointed in the mentality of 80% of shooters.

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8 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

I extrapolated brah, was what i said actually incorrect, if so please clarify.  internet is a pain in the butt.  We would have had this all figured out in a minute or two just BSing after a match

My dislike of class based recognition is actually irrelevant to the topic of prizes. Looking back I'm not sure how I ended up dragging that into this discussion and muddying the waters with it.

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2 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

You may very well be right, and that may be the reality of the situation. But I'm going to keep disagreeing with the principle of it. If a shot at a random draw prize is what keeps people coming back then I guess I'm just very disappointed in the mentality of 80% of shooters.

 

 

Fair enough, and i am going to continue to believe that there is enough of a discrepancy in "pro " shooters i.e. GM and possibly M, that comparing them to "amateur" shooters (A class and down) does a disservice to both.

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1 minute ago, TonytheTiger said:

My dislike of class based recognition is actually irrelevant to the topic of prizes. Looking back I'm not sure how I ended up dragging that into this discussion and muddying the waters with it.

 

 

Internet makes crap confusing, at least it does for me 🙂

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4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

Bottom line is I'm only arguing to argue because it's a slow day at work.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this.  This thread served to kill a lot of time.

 

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

the only things that aren't fine with me are poorly thought out stages, bad RO's, or other situations that lead to a lack of competitive equity. See you guys at the range.

Amen.  Preach it, brother.  The level of irritation I feel when a match has random drawing is comparable to the feeling I get when I notice a bird has crapped on my car.  I don't care that much and I'm still going to shoot the match.

 

As an aside, you wouldn't happen to be the gentleman with the dogs who was CROing the classifier stage at Area 1, would you?

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12 hours ago, motosapiens said:

the only things that aren't fine with me are poorly thought out stages, bad RO's, or other situations that lead to a lack of competitive equity. See you guys at the range.

 

I really hardly ever have an issue with r.o.'s or stages, I do not expect 100% perfection and just roll with it. Competitors make me crazy sometimes; the ones that don't do their share of pasting, the ones that hog the walk through, the ones who have all kinds of time to shoot but can't take 1/2 hour to learn to help keep score, the local guys that shoot your match every month but never help set up or tear down, and the guy that is in your way when you are on deck. 

 

Prizes. If I think I'm being charged a top shooter tax then I just use it as an excuse not to go to a level 2+.

Given the cost, the unpredictability of the weather, the loss of match fee if something last minute (life) happens, the availability of excellent local matches, and the fact that my old ass is getting tired after 9 stages or so, no worries either way. 

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26 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I really hardly ever have an issue with r.o.'s or stages, I do not expect 100% perfection and just roll with it. Competitors make me crazy sometimes; the ones that don't do their share of pasting, the ones that hog the walk through, the ones who have all kinds of time to shoot but can't take 1/2 hour to learn to help keep score, the local guys that shoot your match every month but never help set up or tear down, and the guy that is in your way when you are on deck. 

 

Prizes. If I think I'm being charged a top shooter tax then I just use it as an excuse not to go to a level 2+.

Given the cost, the unpredictability of the weather, the loss of match fee if something last minute (life) happens, the availability of excellent local matches, and the fact that my old ass is getting tired after 9 stages or so, no worries either way. 

 

You are my hero

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19 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

 

 

 

If you notice in this thread, i have mentioned going winner take all or having  a pro/am format. The same guys wanting prize tables in order if finish, don't seem to like either of these ideas. Truly order of finish is, "if you ain't first you are last."  But the same guys that harp about "participation awards" dang sure seem to want their award for  not winning,  i.e. a participation award, seems a little hypocritical to me.

 

Oh yeah, and anyone who thinks that everyone has tha same oppurtunity to win is pretty full of it. It is about the same as grabbing some guys from a local basketball team and expecting them to beat an nba team, cause we all have the same ball and are on the same court, right?

Who exactly? I've read none of that in this thread. There's 2 kinds of people in this thread, order of finish or random draw. 

 

Can everyone pease stop comparing this game to sports like basketball, baseball etc. It's no where near the same. Anyone that wants to win a shooting competition can period. Jerry is old, slow and blind, Taran is huge, fat and slow, no offense to either of those guys I love them both. There are a lot of people that are just like them and are incredible shooters. 

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12 minutes ago, louu said:

Anyone that wants to win a shooting competition can period.

 

Wouldn't it be wonderful if that was true?

 

On the bright side, most of us are able to develop the skill to be very good at something. 

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