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Order of Finish vs. Random Drawing Prize Tables


Tanders

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12 hours ago, wtturn said:

I think we should award achievement in an allegedly competitive sport with winners and losers, yes.

 

we do, with recognition and trophies. It sounds like you are saying that recognition and trophies aren't enough for you, and now you want a disproportionate share of the goodies too. If that's what motivates you, that's cool.

 

It probably makes little difference at area and national matches. People are going to go to those regardless because of the level of competition. It might be worth looking at what happens over the long term when overall finishers get all the goodies. I can tell you that at our local steel challenge matches, it appears that attendance drops. That makes me think that it's dumb, at least as long as the cash payouts and stuff are financed by entry fees. It works out ok for me, since I have walked away with significant cash the last few years, but I still think it's dumb and would rather see a lower entry fee, smaller payout, more random prizes and most importantly, a larger competitive field to shoot against.

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6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

 

the fastest way to ruin a sport for me is to start chasing prizes. I did it briefly when i was racing mtn bikes, going to races where I could win stuff. i quickly realized that attitude sucked all the fun out of the sport. So then I just went to races with the best competition and most challenging and fun courses.  I pretty much see shooting the same way. If you're shooting to win prizes, you're doing it entirely wrong imho. 

I think maybe I'm miscommunicating my position.  I'm not saying that prizes should be the main motivation for shooting a match.  Go ahead and get rid of prizes.  I just dislike random drawing since it is... Well, random.  As a format it doesn't recognize the hard work required to attain the skill necessary to win at a major match.  In my mind major matches are competitions, not products.

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1 minute ago, Tanders said:

I think maybe I'm miscommunicating my position.  I'm not saying that prizes should be the main motivation for shooting a match.  Go ahead and get rid of prizes.  I just dislike random drawing since it is... Well, random.  As a format it doesn't recognize the hard work required to attain the skill necessary to win at a major match.  In my mind major matches are competitions, not products.

right, and you have trophies and recognition for the competition. In addition, if you have a random draw, you have some fun stuff for everyone, and a reason for chubby-mcD-class to hang around for awards and clap for the people that won. A raffle isn't *supposed* to recognize hard work or achievement. It's for everyone to enjoy. The awards ceremony and trophies and recognition are for recognizing your hard work and achievement.

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5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

we do, with recognition and trophies. It sounds like you are saying that recognition and trophies aren't enough for you, and now you want a disproportionate share of the goodies too. If that's what motivates you, that's cool.

 

It probably makes little difference at area and national matches. People are going to go to those regardless because of the level of competition. It might be worth looking at what happens over the long term when overall finishers get all the goodies. I can tell you that at our local steel challenge matches, it appears that attendance drops. That makes me think that it's dumb, at least as long as the cash payouts and stuff are financed by entry fees. It works out ok for me, since I have walked away with significant cash the last few years, but I still think it's dumb and would rather see a lower entry fee, smaller payout, more random prizes and most importantly, a larger competitive field to shoot against.

 

I think you completely misunderstood WTTurns’ post. 

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8 hours ago, Tanders said:

Since the vast majority of match prizes are sponsor-donated, you aren't paying a GM to win the match; your match fee goes toward paying for supplies and compensating the staff, something from which every participant in the match benefits.  If a GM gets a big-ticket item for winning the match, it doesn't cost you a dime.

 

Most of the guys who win sectionals and area matches do not have a sponsor who is giving them anything more than a discount code for a product.  These guys are winning because they sink more time into skill development than the other competitors, not because they have some "sugar daddy" sponsor who's paying for their ammo and match fees or because they are born with natural talent.  This investment of time and resources should be rewarded since it encourages others to make the same investment and therefore helps to improve the talent pool of the sport.  I don't see how that could be a bad thing.

EXACTLY! Thank you for an awesome, fact filled post. 

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8 hours ago, wtturn said:

I guess I just have a fundamentally different view of results and what I'm trying to accomplish.

Class is irrelevant. All I care about is finishing as high as possible in the results (winning overall, preferably).

Whether you're A class, or GM, or unclassified, I can't wrap my mind around having any other goal than trying to beat as many other people in my division as possible. That's the essence of sport.

Fixation on class wins and performance relative to class is the reason many people never get any better.

Awarding prizes by order of finish is a stronger incentive for improvement than awarding prizes by some other scheme. Anything else is just participation trophies.

We need to change the culture in this sport to start incentivizing achievement again.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
 

Sir I will gladly buy you a sarsaparilla

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8 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

While yes, random draw is kinda participation trophys, going straight order of finish is a great way to cut participation at majors.  Pretty much all other sports  have "classes" in one form or another from pro to hobby, USPSA is a little different because we all shoot at the same match at the same time.  I think that is why it is hard for people to understand sometimes, that without some other "scheme" for awards, the meat of the field will be cut. 

 

 Winning your class is an incentive for achievement, Ricky Bobbying it is just a way to cut participation.  And without A-D shooters, the match will be pretty bare.

 

I am no math whiz, but it is pretty easy to figure there is not much value in paying $150 for 12-14 stages, with no chance of a prize , when for the same money a person can get 50 stages and the same  no chance of a prize at a local.

 

I guess we are different, cause i get no happiness from beating everyone in my division, if everyone i am shooting against sucks

It's not kinda participation trophy, it's is participation trophy. You only have to fire 1 shot on the first stage and you won. This is a major psychological problem in our current society on so many levels.

 

Dont worry about the match not feeling up because it always will with people willing to work hard and place as high as they can. 

 

 I'm seriously not trying to sound like a dick but there's no other way to say it. If you don't think you should be rewarded for your work you should just give your paycheck to the bum on the corner. 

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8 hours ago, Tanders said:

The class system doesn't really provide a good metric for predicting major match results anymore.  The HHF update last year really screwed things up since USPSA decided to raise the HHFs to unattainable levels.  When you couple that with the introduction of programs like the #Winwithwalther "Sandbagger Rewards Program," the class system is pretty much irrelevant.  That being said, I'm M-class, verging on GM.  However, I have no natural ability and I had to work really hard to get where I am.  I'm also poor and made M-class almost completely by dry-firing, so I feel that this is an achievement that is attainable for anyone.

 

I noticed that in most of your posts you have focused primarily on the unfairness of GMs being rewarded for beating up on lower classified shooters.  However, there is also a flipside to rewarding order of finish, and that is the time-honored tradition of shaming grandbaggers.  There is nothing more fun than seeing a bunch of Ms and GMs get whooped by an A-class guy who has been training hard.  That sort of achievement is what I want to see rewarded.  In the event that someone wins their division at a major match, I don't think that they should get a gun or some other nice prize because they dunked on a bunch of B- and C-class guys... I think they should get a gun because they put in more work and did a better job keeping it together than anyone else who showed up that day.  Everybody who entered the match showed up to shoot a competition, not just to have a fun day at the range.  Therefore, the guys who competed the best should be rewarded the best.

You sir have my respect 

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7 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Meh, I think 80% or something like that show up strictly to have fun (otherwise we suffer from delusions of grandeur) . Keeping score and challenging yourself makes it more fun, but a fun day at the range is 100% why I go to matches.  

Not true at all. I worked a major match for 2 years straight, I got to shake the hand of over 800 competitors and watch every one of them shoot. 90 percent of them were there with winning in mind. 10 percent of them were there just to have fun. 

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it sounds like people are confusing two entirely different topics.... trophies and recognition based on match placement, and distribution of donated merchandise prizes.

 

all matches reward your match placement.

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5 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

Once the 3 gun prize tables that went back 150 places dried up here, the three gun scene seemed to slow down too.  Has it where you are at?  You know those 150 place prize tables are almost like a participation trophy if you think about it.  Also didn't 3GN (is that even still a thing?) start doing classifiers?  I honestly can't remember

I honestly have no idea how many places the prizes went back at the few majors I've been to. I don't think it was 150 though. Maybe that was before my time. 3GN appears to be dead, and even when locals were 3GN affiliated and ran classifiers I only met a couple guys out of hundreds that actually became members and tracked their classifier scores.

 

Either way, I will continue to think classes are dumb except maybe as a way to track progress. But definitely not a thing to be awarded or officially recognized.

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56 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

it sounds like people are confusing two entirely different topics.... trophies and recognition based on match placement, and distribution of donated merchandise prizes.

 

all matches reward your match placement.

 

Me and you are on the same page i think, at least according to everything you wrote in the last hour or so I seem to agree %100.  I never said that winners shouldn't be recognized mainly just that the since  lower classes are the ones footing a disproportionate amount of the bill for the match, giving them a random draw prize seems a good way to keep them coming back.  The winners take all mentality sometimes forget that while they have put in the most effort to improve their game, people who for whatever reason haven't (time, money, family, etc) do put in by far the largest portion of money at a match.

 

As quick example here is area 1 numbers

 

Limited GM/M  22 out of 121

open 27 out of 108

production 16 out of71

SS 4 out of 30

CO 12 out of 87

 

So roughly %80 of match funding comes from people that would probably never have a chance of a prize if it were not for random draw.  The funny thing, is I bet if it was winner take all at a match, most of the people advocating for order of finish, would be pissed. 

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40 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

I honestly have no idea how many places the prizes went back at the few majors I've been to. I don't think it was 150 though. Maybe that was before my time. 3GN appears to be dead, and even when locals were 3GN affiliated and ran classifiers I only met a couple guys out of hundreds that actually became members and tracked their classifier scores.

 

Either way, I will continue to think classes are dumb except maybe as a way to track progress. But definitely not a thing to be awarded or officially recognized.

 

Another serious question, do you think it is ok in other sports to recognize different levels of talent?  Take baseball for example, there are several different farm leagues, aaa, major, etc., where like talent levels play against each other.  Does saying classes are dumb mean the same as saying if you can't make it in the majors, stay at home?  

 

On the 3 gun prize table, I have seen them where everyone who shot ended up with at least 75-100 dollars of stuff, but it seems that has gone the way of the dodo a little bit, and there are just not as many big 3 gun matches in this area and i think the lack of prize table correlates with it

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1 hour ago, louu said:

It's not kinda participation trophy, it's is participation trophy. You only have to fire 1 shot on the first stage and you won. This is a major psychological problem in our current society on so many levels.

 

Dont worry about the match not feeling up because it always will with people willing to work hard and place as high as they can. 

 

 I'm seriously not trying to sound like a dick but there's no other way to say it. If you don't think you should be rewarded for your work you should just give your paycheck to the bum on the corner. 

 

 

Awards=trophys and recognition, and i most certainly think people should be rewarded for winning and placing high in a match.  Prizes probably should be random draw as the people paying for %80 or so of a major should not necessarily have to hand their paycheck to the guy who won (forgive me if i don't feel obligated to pay for your or another winners  match).   And if prizes are donations and not real match money,  and  you don't get one, it really shouldn't hurt your feelings as you will have your award and recognition.  But the guys footing the bill will have a chance at something cool too, not a trophy though, that is all yours, if you win

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1 hour ago, louu said:

Not true at all. I worked a major match for 2 years straight, I got to shake the hand of over 800 competitors and watch every one of them shoot. 90 percent of them were there with winning in mind. 10 percent of them were there just to have fun. 

 

 

How many that have winning in mind have an actual chance of winning though?  Out of 800 with 8 divisions looks about like 8. You good to go with winner take all?   Every match i go to i try to win, but it don't happen and I am just realistic about it

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1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

 

Awards=trophys and recognition, and i most certainly think people should be rewarded for winning and placing high in a match.  Prizes probably should be random draw as the people paying for %80 or so of a major should not necessarily have to hand their paycheck to the guy who won (forgive me if i don't feel obligated to pay for your or another winners  match).   And if prizes are donations and not real match money,  and  you don't get one, it really shouldn't hurt your feelings as you will have your award and recognition.  But the guys footing the bill will have a chance at something cool too, not a trophy though, that is all yours, if you win

 

The people who place well have almost always sunk more time and resources into developing skill compared to those who don't practice and are just there to hang out with their friends and have fun (nothing wrong with that).  It would be nice for the people who have invested more into mastering this sport (activity?) to get something that offsets their considerable expenses.  Sure, everyone pays the same match fee, but there is a LOT more expense besides match fees that is necessary to win a major.  If someone isn't willing or able to prioritize shooting enough to meet these time and financial commitments (I fall into this category), that is COMPLETELY understandable; however, they have no business feeling entitled to a shot at winning something valuable that would recoup investments which they have not made.  To be honest, I really like Sanders' idea of writing checks to division winners.

 

I have heard many people say that the sport is built on the intermediate-classed guys who make up the vast majority of the membership.  I'm not sure how true that is and here's why: the reason why this sport grows is because people see some super-GM burning down a stage on YouTube and they think, "I wanna do THAT!"  It doesn't grow because someone stumbled upon a B- or C-class shooter's hatcam footage on Instagram (not knocking B- and C-class, everyone who's any good started out there).  Skill looks really freakin' cool.  If we tangibly reward skill, it draws even more skill (or encourages people to develop skill).  This in turn raises the profile of the sport and attracts new members.  If we continue to randomly distribute anything of value in the majority of major matches, I don't see how practical shooting is ever going to be anything more than a hobby for the vast majority of its participants since there's no financial incentive to invest the considerable time and money necessary to excel.  Creating an enviroment in which skill is rewarded would go a lot further toward growing the sport than raffling off a few guns before the awards ceremony.

 

Holy crap, that was longer than I planned!  I don't think I'm going to change anybody's mind, but I enjoyed having the opportunity to hear other people's thoughts and express my own.  Really glad I started the thread.

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6 hours ago, RJH said:

How many that have winning in mind have an actual chance of winning though?  Out of 800 with 8 divisions looks about like 8. You good to go with winner take all?   Every match i go to i try to win, but it don't happen and I am just realistic about it

 

I think the terminology gets a little confused. Having fun includes doing the best you can and when you work matches you see disappointment from unforced errors and the like.

"Winning" is also about meeting personal goals, finishing in the top half of the class or with a xx or better % match score, beating your friend, just doing better than you did last time and etc. 

The 80+% that do not have a chance of actually winning are not delusional. Same thing on a golf course or bicycle ride, you know you ain't Lance or Tiger but you still enjoy putting out your best effort. 

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9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

 

the fastest way to ruin a sport for me is to start chasing prizes. I did it briefly when i was racing mtn bikes, going to races where I could win stuff. i quickly realized that attitude sucked all the fun out of the sport. So then I just went to races with the best competition and most challenging and fun courses.  I pretty much see shooting the same way. If you're shooting to win prizes, you're doing it entirely wrong imho. 

I totally see where you are coming from and respect that. For me I have fun testing myself, constantly improving and winning. So IMHO I am doing it right. 

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9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

we do, with recognition and trophies. It sounds like you are saying that recognition and trophies aren't enough for you, and now you want a disproportionate share of the goodies too. If that's what motivates you, that's cool.

 

It probably makes little difference at area and national matches. People are going to go to those regardless because of the level of competition. It might be worth looking at what happens over the long term when overall finishers get all the goodies. I can tell you that at our local steel challenge matches, it appears that attendance drops. That makes me think that it's dumb, at least as long as the cash payouts and stuff are financed by entry fees. It works out ok for me, since I have walked away with significant cash the last few years, but I still think it's dumb and would rather see a lower entry fee, smaller payout, more random prizes and most importantly, a larger competitive field to shoot against.

No one really cares or is going to remember anyone that won unless their name is max, kc, Jerry, or jj... They just care about what they got themselves. Just look at the cesspool called social media, it's just a bunch of people trying to one up each other bragging about how great they are and what they have. 

 

I don't think I'm picking up what your putting down but it kinda sounds like you would rater compete against a lot of so so shooters rather than a slightly smaller field of top shooters? 

 

There's a simple solution to the whole debate of random draw prize table thing, don't call it a competition or a match, call it a fun shoot or a charity event. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, louu said:

For me I have fun testing myself, constantly improving and winning. So IMHO I am doing it right. 

 

The improvement curve is fun for everybody. The phase after you plateau, or age starts moving you in the other direction, is where most shooters are at. Eventually everyone decides they will keep shooting because they like shooting or head off to the next challenging thing and see how far they can go with it.

 

Watching a buddy go from a C class hacker that I could beat to a legitimate super squad shooter with a roomful of match trophies was interesting. It was sort of like he really loved he climb but when he got to the top there was nothing to do but peak at the view and then move on. Too much time and expense to maintain his skill level after it was a been there done that kind of thing. 

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2 hours ago, louu said:

I don't think I'm picking up what your putting down but it kinda sounds like you would rater compete against a lot of so so shooters rather than a slightly smaller field of top shooters? 

 

 

wut? that has nothing whatsoever with the distribution of donated prizes. (which has nothing whatsoever to do with trophies and recognition for the match winners).

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2 hours ago, louu said:

I totally see where you are coming from and respect that. For me I have fun testing myself, constantly improving and winning. So IMHO I am doing it right. 

 

testing yourself, constantly improving and winning have nothing whatsoever to do with raffling off donated merchandise. They are completely separate topics.

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7 hours ago, Tanders said:

If we continue to randomly distribute anything of value in the majority of major matches, I don't see how practical shooting is ever going to be anything more than a hobby for the vast majority of its participants since there's no financial incentive to invest the considerable time and money necessary to excel. 

 

So you're saying that people need a financial incentive in order to want to get good at something? Seems like a dumb way to make money to me, since I can make a lot more a lot quicker by just going to work. Sports for me are about challenging myself and getting better, not getting material rewards.

 

If I win my division at an area match and collect $2000 for it, I'll still be in hole in terms of training time, ammo, travel expense, etc... 

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2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

The improvement curve is fun for everybody. The phase after you plateau, or age starts moving you in the other direction, is where most shooters are at. Eventually everyone decides they will keep shooting because they like shooting or head off to the next challenging thing and see how far they can go with it.

 

 

The trick is to improve very slowly, lol, then you can stay in that improvement curve for longer.

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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

So you're saying that people need a financial incentive in order to want to get good at something? Seems like a dumb way to make money to me, since I can make a lot more a lot quicker by just going to work. Sports for me are about challenging myself and getting better, not getting material rewards.

 

If I win my division at an area match and collect $2000 for it, I'll still be in hole in terms of training time, ammo, travel expense, etc...

 

In every sport or game there are people who will obsess about it and train constantly in order to be the best if it is financially feasible for them to do so (to be clear, I am not one of these people).  Right now that group only consists of competitors with a full-time job at some sort of firearms brand (Glock, Sig, etc.).  It would be cool if the culture in USPSA started to shift toward providing more material reward to those who are training a lot, thereby enabling them to free up more time and resources for skill development.  I would love to see USPSA evolve into an actual sport with more full-time athletes who don't need day jobs for support; this increases the exposure of practical shooting and encourages growth.  Giving away sponsor-donated prizes to top finishers won't accomplish this, but it would be a step in the right direction.  Am I making sense?

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