SS Minor disadvantage at Lo-Cap Nationals?

[shred]

From the looks of that match (I didn't shoot it either), and based on shooting several nats & matches at USA, Lo-cap Nats at Frostproof is unlikely to look much like that.

 

[N3WWN]

On 5/17/2019 at 8:21 PM, Wrist Shot said:

Stage designers need to consider the fact that SS is unique in allowing multiple magazine capacities in the same division. USPSA allows 8 shots in a position but if you have a stage with an unloaded start in a box that requires 8 shots you have handicapped a portion of your shooters (slide lock, no make-up). There is no good reason to do this.

 

Single Stack is not quite as unique as you may think!   Revolver has 6 round major and 8 round minor.  

 

The "...no more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view..." rule is usually enough to keep revolver shooters from shooting major since it almost forces standing reloads in many courses of fire.  8 rounds vs 10 rounds in SS doesn't have the same problem, it just increases the risk of missing. 

 

Going to slide-lock shouldn't be that big of an issue for most shooters, either.  Provided that the mag drops free without spring tension since the slide is locked back, slide-lock reloads shouldn't take much longer than a non-slide-lock reload if you train.  My reloads aren't sub-second, by any means, but a slide-lock reload only costs me about 0.1s longer.

 

Personally, I don't mind unloaded starts with 8 shots right off the bat.  I just have to make each shot count or take the punishment of a standing or nearly-standing reload.  I will also adjust my order of engagement, if I can, so that if I do need that extra shot or two, I can take a lean or a step or two out of the position for the final shot(s).

 

The only stage design that I really don't like when I'm shooting SS major (or for my friends shooting Revolver minor, for that matter) is 3-shots per paper.  That usually ends up being a reload after every 2nd target.

 

On 5/20/2019 at 8:27 PM, belus said:

@IHAVEGAS linked to this match earlier, which may be a good proxy for LoCap Nats: https://practiscore.com/results/new/78817

It was described as a hose-fest though. I didn't shoot it so I can't really say.

The first half of the video is the HOA shooting minor SS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Zo_kZFQlw

 

 

I shot BITB X and it was a semi-hose-fest, not that THAT is a bad thing.     I also shot Factory Gun Nats in 2018 (SS major) and the stages are a TOTALLY different flavor at Nats:  Average shot distance is further, more movement, more moving targets, intentional speed-bumps,  etc. 

 

At BITB X, all of the SS GMs shot minor, so I don't know that you can really use that to say whether or not minor won that match or if a GM won that match.  The top shooters... the GMs and some of the Ms... are just fast!  I came in 2nd out of the SS major shooters (7th place SS) and never thought, "I should have shot minor"... the 4% scoring bonus shooting major vs minor made up for the time difference between me and the minor shooters, though.  Was that time difference purely the number and/or position of reloads?  Who knows?!  

 

I've shot 3 BITBs, and the first BITB that I shot, I shot SS minor and didn't enjoy myself at all but I had only really shot Limited major for a long time before that and didn't know how to break down the stages so was happy to follow the Production folks stage plans, but shot it like I was shooting major and dropped way too many points.

 

The 2nd and 3rd times I shot BITB, I shot SS major and had a LOT more fun!  Most of the time, the stage plans were totally different than those of the Prod folks... and sometimes even the SS major folks had totally different stage plans compared to each other.  

[tdp88]

In general you cannot makeup for Major scoring even if it saves you a standing reload on every stage. If you consistently miss steel and throw makeup shots, you might see a slight advantage with 10 rounds vs 8 but you're probably also not shooting a lot of alphas if you're not hitting steel. I shot SS minor all of last year and I probably only shot 2 or 3 stages all year that gave a significant advantage to minor. 

[motosapiens]

Just now, tdp88 said:

In general you cannot makeup for Major scoring even if it saves you a standing reload on every stage. 

 

I think that depends on how fast you reload and how many charlies you typically shoot. Good M and GM shooters typically average about 1/4 charlies or less, so maybe 7-8 charlies on a 32 round stage, or about 1.6 seconds for a typical 5-6 hit-factor stage.  Most people can't do an unplanned standing reload in less than 1.6 seconds.

[tdp88]

14 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I think that depends on how fast you reload and how many charlies you typically shoot. Good M and GM shooters typically average about 1/4 charlies or less, so maybe 7-8 charlies on a 32 round stage, or about 1.6 seconds for a typical 5-6 hit-factor stage.  Most people can't do an unplanned standing reload in less than 1.6 seconds.

Most low level shooters will also have standing reloads with 10 rounds. 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, tdp88 said:

Most low level shooters will also have standing reloads with 10 rounds. 

 

fair point. I'm really only interested in the topic from the POV of competitive shooters. People who aren't winning would be far better served by practicing than by stressing out about guns.

[tdp88]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

People who aren't winning would be far better served by practicing than by stressing out about guns.

No truer words have ever been spoken.

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

fair point. I'm really only interested in the topic from the POV of competitive shooters. People who aren't winning would be far better served by practicing than by stressing out about guns.

but those that are winning spend almost no time worrying about guns so we need to pick up their slack.

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

but those that are winning spend almost no time worrying about guns so we need to pick up their slack.

I won some money at one of your matches shooting ss minor a few years ago. But I guess I don't really *worry* about guns, I just like to argue about nothing on the internet.

[MikeBurgess]

Arguing on the internet is one of life's great pleasures.

[Dutchman195]

I wont get into specifics but:

 

Without seeing the stages in person you cant tell if its going to be minor or major. Even looking at a stage diagram doesnt reflect the real life course. Just man up and shoot major (thats my opinion)

Also, discussing two set of ammo, I think misses the point. 130 vs 170PF doesnt matter, its the 2 extra rounds. If you have a 10rnd unloaded start your going to get toasted by minor shooters.  

 

[funkymonkey1111]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

 People who aren't winning would be far better served by practicing than by stressing out about guns.

 

i don't think anyone is stressing out here.  ultimately, while different than the original question, if one decided to start from the beginning without owning a 1911 for single stack, is it better to go major or minor? 

 

once the selection is made, then the competitor can go practice and not stress about guns.  

[motosapiens]

2 minutes ago, funkymonkey1111 said:

 ultimately, while different than the original question, if one decided to start from the beginning without owning a 1911 for single stack, is it better to go major or minor? 

 

 

It's better to go limited major and save SS for special occasions.  I love shooting SS but I have been learning and progressing much more quickly shooting limited.  

[Dutchman195]

21 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

It's better to go limited major and save SS for special occasions.  I love shooting SS but I have been learning and progressing much more quickly shooting limited.  

SS 40 Major because then it'll be the same load for your limited gun. ha

[funkymonkey1111]

48 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

It's better to go limited major and save SS for special occasions.  I love shooting SS but I have been learning and progressing much more quickly shooting limited.  

That's not the question, e.g., what division should i start?  

 

The question is between minor and major SS starting from step one (and while you didn't say it, without regard to penis size, "manliness," "45ACP, because they don't make a 46!," or "9mm is for 'insert slur here....'")

 

 

[lstange]

Here's how cumulative distribution functions of match percent look like on a sample of recent matches where more than one Single Stack competitor was present:

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by lstange
clarity

[rustychev]

So if I'm reading that right minor looks better until the very top of the scores?

[lstange]

Just now, rustychev said:

So if I'm reading that right minor looks better until the very top of the scores?

Major looks better in the middle (closer to the right, which is 100%), and at the top there is no difference. Whatever difference there is, it's pretty small.

 

Also keep in mind that it's not a real double-blind controlled trial, just a straight comparison. There may be other factors in play (different skill levels, etc.)

[belus]

2 hours ago, lstange said:

Here's how cumulative distribution functions of match percent look like on a sample of recent matches where more than one Single Stack competitor was present:

 That's a really cool graph, but could you explain EDCF for me or at least define it?

________ Cumulative Distribution Function?

And since it's a sigmoid, is it much trouble to plot it as a distribution? That might be more familiar to some of us.

[lstange]

27 minutes ago, belus said:

 That's a really cool graph, but could you explain EDCF for me or at least define it?

________ Cumulative Distribution Function?

And since it's a sigmoid, is it much trouble to plot it as a distribution? That might be more familiar to some of us.

Empirical, based on a sample rather the entire population. Explanation.

 

The differences are not really visible if you compare histograms:

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by lstange
added link