SS Minor disadvantage at Lo-Cap Nationals?

[funkymonkey1111]

I've read many a thread on here that the "SS Nationals" biased stage design to elimination any (real or perceived) advantage a SS minor shooter would have by designing stages to favor 8 rounders.  

 

My question is this--I'm assuming the "SS Nationals" was run by the the now-defunct Single Stack Society (or 1911 society or whatever it was called).  Is that correct?   

 

If so, or not, is there a disadvantage (by stage design bias) to SS Minor in the USPSA Lo-Cap Nationals where L10 and Production shooters will be participating on the same stages, versus an all-SS match such as the SS Nationals?  

 

Ultimately, the question comes down to this--were you to go to the Lo-Cap Nationals match, would you go minor or major in SS?   

 

Or, if any of these assumptions are wrong, please let me know (am I confusing "SS Nationals" with "SS Classic....")

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by funkymonkey1111

[motosapiens]

Hard to say without seeing the stages. With the old ss nats at PASA, the stages were carefully designed with angled partials (favors major), very few zebra partials (which imho favor minor), and very few situations where an extra couple rounds would be a significant advantage, as in allowing you to do fewer reloads or shoot more aggressively on steel.

 

In the most recent SS nationals (which I didn't shoot),  it appeared that minor might have had a slight advantage on the field courses, but then there were a crap-ton of classifiers (6 reload 6) which takes away any capacity advantage in those stages, and lots of strong and weak-hand (which for most people means more c and d hits, which is bad for minor shooters).

 

I would expect it to be a bit of a wash now. If you can go 1-1 on steel whenever you want, and you reload really fast, major is probably preferable. If you tend to get alot of alphas, minor may work just as well.

[Racinready300ex]

I would probably go Major,  at Nat's I would expect a lot of partials, and my reloads are pretty good anyway.

 

For me, I shot SS all last year, first half of the year Major, 2nd half Minor. Looking at my results at the end of the year it seemed I did better shooting major. So I would likely lean major anyway, unless I looked at the stages and they made it clear Minor would be better. I've shot matches where the way the stages we set up the extra 2 rounds did nothing for me at all. I've also shot matches in major where it seems like I was at slide lock all day long, and would of loved those extra 2 rounds.

[223to45]

Major is just a handicap for people who can't shoot.


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[mlmiller1]

USPSA leans strongly to 8 round arrays.  It is against rules to force more than 8 shots from any position.  Nationals stages will definitely be within the rules.  Does that mean they are biased against minor?  No it means you cant force more than 8 shots from a single position.  Thats all it means.  It keeps things more even so a person CAN shoot major & still compete.

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, mlmiller1 said:

USPSA leans strongly to 8 round arrays.  It is against rules to force more than 8 shots from any position.  Nationals stages will definitely be within the rules.  Does that mean they are biased against minor?  No it means you cant force more than 8 shots from a single position.  Thats all it means.  It keeps things more even so a person CAN shoot major & still compete.

you can't force it, but many times it is highly advantageous to shoot more than 8 shots from a single position, and many times 2 'positions' are a step away from each other.

 

And then of course, there is always that retarded stage designer that decides on an unloaded start followed by 8 shots in every position (including mini-poppers) ... (I've seen 3 of these in the last couple months.)

[jcc7x7]

Go there with both guns and ammo

Look the stages over and see how many of the stages are going to be 10 round friendly.

You have to know your shooting style, if your a patient shooter and will get 90% A's then minor is a good choice.

If you're like me and shot Major for a long time, I tend to fire away if the sight is in the C zone.

So major is better under most circumstances for a guy like me.

Currently I'm shooting minor to try and change that LOL, but if I was leaving today for Nationals  SS I'd

take my major gun. FWIW cause I score better with major than minor

[motosapiens]

you could probably score even better-er if you took the extra couple hundredths of a second to put your sights in the A-zone.

[MikeBurgess]

It is Soo stage dependent. 

 

That said the last nationals at USA seemed to favor Major over minor (SS beat Prod) one thing that made a big difference was the number of intermediate range open targets think 12 to 18 yards those seemed to cause a large number of Cs and Ds for many shooters, also they had a bunch of over the top swingers (no dwell) 

 

So if the stage designers are the same and there are less standards it will be close but probably still favor major slightly, but as said above  bring both thats the best part about single stack, its an excuse to buy more guns

 

 

[Joe4d]

Id run a 40 and carry two sets of ammo and decide when I saw the stages.

[s2000red]

For this year's LOCAP nationals, production and limited 10 are being shot on Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday.  Then Wednesday is an off day.  Single stack and revolver will be shot on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.  

 

Do you guys think the stages will be "re-worked" on Wednesday and do you think they could possibly favor major more since those final days are SS and Rev only?  I know it is just a guess, but curious what you guys think.  I will be there shooting SS.

[waktasz]

Look at the results from last year, that should answer your question.

[gearguywb]

Totally stage dependent.  The majority of the time, the 2 round difference does not overcome the point difference.

[terrydoc]

14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

you can't force it, but many times it is highly advantageous to shoot more than 8 shots from a single position, and many times 2 'positions' are a step away from each other.

 

And then of course, there is always that retarded stage designer that decides on an unloaded start followed by 8 shots in every position (including mini-poppers) ... (I've seen 3 of these in the last couple months.)

we get a lot of these in Australia although its 9 from any position down here as its IPSC. W also get a lot of unloaded start 9 round short courses, and loaded 11 round.

Edited May 15, 2019 by terrydoc

[N3WWN]

13 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Id run a 40 and carry two sets of ammo and decide when I saw the stages.

 

Or just take major ammo and declare minor after you've looked at the stages and have decided which is better for you.   I'd rather be intimately familiar with my gun with one type of ammo and not have to worry about it feeling different, having different timing or a different zero. 

 

You can't be bumped to major at chrono. 

 

Plus, shipping 2x the ammo to shoot one Nationals is an activity I'd rather not be engaged in... again! (Primary gun was a 40 and backup gun was a 9)

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, waktasz said:

Look at the results from last year, that should answer your question.

 

yes, if 1/3 of the stages are hard classifiers (6 reload 6) with strong and weak hand and tight partials, then for sure, major is better.

 

OTOH, with a more traditional mix of field stages.... maybe, maybe not.

[rowdyb]

As far as I know, SS Society does not do the stages when the match is held in Frostproof.

 

Maj or Min for thinking about the overall is pure conjecture without seeing the stages.

 

Yes, they will rework the stages in the break between matches. You will not shoot it exactly as the previous match if last year's 9 days of classifiers nationals is to be used as a guide.

[pskys2]

Which do you shoot best?  Take that one and practice.  Forget trying to game the match by rounds.

You won't be at a disadvantage shooting major, you can lose points shooting minor but you also have extra rounds for the Oh My moments and steel.

A miss is a miss for either, an A is an A for both.

Take each stage as it comes, forget about it once done, focus on your plan, try NOT to think while shooting and, most importantly, ENJOY the moments! And may there be many good ones.

Edited May 15, 2019 by pskys2

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Which do you shoot best?  Take that one and practice.  Forget trying to game the match by rounds.

 

This is probably the best advice in this thread. The difference at most is a couple percent, and you can easily lose a couple percent just by second-guessing yourself, practicing with multiple guns, and thinking about stuff other than shooting. I have showed up with only my 45 to a section match that imho very much favored minor, and I still won... 

[Joe4d]

11 hours ago, N3WWN said:

 

Or just take major ammo and declare minor after you've looked at the stages and have decided which is better for you.   I'd rather be intimately familiar with my gun with one type of ammo and not have to worry about it feeling different, having different timing or a different zero. 

 

You can't be bumped to major at chrono. 

 

Plus, shipping 2x the ammo to shoot one Nationals is an activity I'd rather not be engaged in... again! (Primary gun was a 40 and backup gun was a 9)

Major 180's, and minor 155 40's with same powder charge have same point of impact,,  Did it for years shot the 155 minor loads through a Para for IDPA,  and the 180's for USPSA,,, same POI, and was a bit softer with the 155's
I get your point , I dont think timing changed and I felt I was faster with the 155's,,, but can honestly say, I never shot same drills with both.  
Also yeh if ur shipping,, be a PIA

[N3WWN]

19 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Major 180's, and minor 155 40's with same powder charge have same point of impact,,  Did it for years shot the 155 minor loads through a Para for IDPA,  and the 180's for USPSA,,, same POI, and was a bit softer with the 155's
I get your point , I dont think timing changed and I felt I was faster with the 155's,,, but can honestly say, I never shot same drills with both.  
Also yeh if ur shipping,, be a PIA

 

I played with this a bit earlier this year.  155gr using the same charge as my 170gr major recipe only dropped the PF from 170 to 156 (nice how the weight is essentially the PF, eh?! ) 

 

Since the reduction in PF wasn't as large as I'd hoped, I didn't go any further and didn't test POA vs POI for both loads. 

 

If I had been shooting 200gr, like I did last year, or even 180gr, I would have seen a larger reduction in PF (~30-40 PF lower or ~130-140 PF) and would have then pursued this venture further.  

 

At any rate, sticking to the topic at hand...

 

I used to shoot SS minor before I shot SS major and have never looked back since I switched. 

 

I don't ever recall wishing I had declared minor based on an entire match. 

 

For a stage here or there?  Sure, minor would have been nice as a little extra insurance, would have made stage planning a little easier, or could have saved me from dropping a mag with 6 or 7 rounds left in it so I could top up to 8+1 for the next array, but that's not enough motivation for me to shoot minor.

[Wrist Shot]

PASA would usually have a high round count stage of all steel...same points, different stage plans, and more/forced reloads for major and a clear advantage for minor. I don't think you will ever see that at Universal in Frostproof.

 

Stage designers need to consider the fact that SS is unique in allowing multiple magazine capacities in the same division. USPSA allows 8 shots in a position but if you have a stage with an unloaded start in a box that requires 8 shots you have handicapped a portion of your shooters (slide lock, no make-up). There is no good reason to do this.

[rustychev]

41 minutes ago, Wrist Shot said:

 

Stage designers need to consider the fact that SS is unique in allowing multiple magazine capacities in the same division. USPSA allows 8 shots in a position but if you have a stage with an unloaded start in a box that requires 8 shots you have handicapped a portion of your shooters (slide lock, no make-up). There is no good reason to do this.

 

 

I don't totally agree with that last part.  Part of what I like about SS is the risk vs reward of 8 or 10 and unloaded starts are just one of the risks you have to think about.  

 

I shoot minor as I have found that for the matches I shoot it tends to be a better risk.

[shred]

Generally, SS major trends a few % advantage overall at major matches (those with more long/tight shots than most.  Local "Level 2 hosefests", maybe, maybe not.

 

When it was at PASA, it seemed they went out of their way to make it major-friendly, but I think even at Frostproof there was a slight Major advantage.

 

Then again, there's Magnus Cup where Jeremy chose to shoot Minor and walked away with it.

 

 

 

[belus]

@IHAVEGAS linked to this match earlier, which may be a good proxy for LoCap Nats: https://practiscore.com/results/new/78817

It was described as a hose-fest though. I didn't shoot it so I can't really say.

The first half of the video is the HOA shooting minor SS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Zo_kZFQlw