Full Powder Squib

[ChemistShooter]

I had a squib at the range the other day. I had two other no-powder squibs with my 550 and upgraded to a 650 primarily to stop that from happening again.

 

And it became clear that had actually worked. There was powder from the round all over the place. Inside the gun, in the handle, on the shelf.

 

The primer fired---the powder did NOT.

 

For the records: 9mm cast-lead 115 gr .356 Bayou Bullets RN cast lead, 1.161 COAL over 5.5 gr Power Pistol and CCI small pistol primers, fired from Springfield XDM 3.8 Full-size. Shot thousands of rounds with NO problems.

 

This has caused considerable head-scratching. The only thing I can come up with is the crimp was a touch too light. I know it's supposed to be neck-tension only and I'm thinking I went a little too far. You can see the crimp line but can't scratch it. Sometimes it fades a little because the bullet coating is not rigidly uniform.

 

Thoughts? TIA.

 

[AHI]

crimp is not your problem .   your powder is /was contaminated with some thing.

How do you clean your brass? Do you lube your brass?   

[Guy Neill]

The three most probable causes are;

 

     1. Contaminated powder

     2. Contaminated primer

     3. Too little priming compound

 

Contamination of the powder could result from moisture or oil in the case.  Alternately, something in the reloading process, such as the powder measure.

 

Contamination of the primer could occur during manufacture or sometime later.  The contamination (usually oil) does not allow the entire pellet to ignite, thereby delivering too little heat to the powder charge.

 

Too little priming compound is a manufacturing mistake.  With too little compound there is not enough heat delivered to ignite the powder.

[Ken6PPC]

I have never known of a primer that fired, yet didn't ignite the powder unless the powder was contaminated. 

 

If the primer had not fired, I would suspect the primer was installed backwards, missing an anvil, or no priming mixture at all.  Since you didn't mention any of those, I am guessing they don't apply here.  

 

A bullet will clear the barrel with hardly ANY powder igniting.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClS5tqX7wC8&t=630s  

 

Therefore, logically speaking, your powder had to have been contaminated with SOMETHING.  

 

Do you wet tumble your cases?  Did you leave some cases wet inside?  Was the bullet stuck in the bore, or just in the throat of the chamber (i.e. loaded long and sticking in the lands)?  

[ChuckS]

8 minutes ago, Ken6PPC said:

I have never known of a primer that fired, yet didn't ignite the powder unless the powder was contaminated. 

 

I had some of these that traced back to salvaged cases that were victims of an impact bullet puller. The primer compound had fractured  and fallen out of the primer. I had some fire but not burn all the powder. The suffering is real.

[MemphisMechanic]

Flash pocket obscured with debris somehow. (Unlikely)

 

Likely:

A guy who wet tumbles and this piece of brass was still not totally dry. (If you dry tumble, disregard.)

 

Powder getting contaminated with an excessive amount of case lube which found it’s way into that one case.

 

[Ken6PPC]

2 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

I had some of these that traced back to salvaged cases that were victims of an impact bullet puller. The primer compound had fractured  and fallen out of the primer. I had some fire but not burn all the powder. The suffering is real.

 

Well, I admit that I only use new primers, so...  

 

In any case, can you explain why a primer would (or COULD) ignite SOME of the powder without igniting ALL of the powder?  

[ChuckS]

1 minute ago, Ken6PPC said:

 

Well, I admit that I only use new primers, so...  

 

In any case, can you explain why a primer would (or COULD) ignite SOME of the powder without igniting ALL of the powder?  

Nope, not a chemist. but have seen this, including very quiet rounds that did clear the barrel (stopped to check and found powder all over the chamber). Guy?

[Ken6PPC]

Just now, ChuckS said:

Nope, not a chemist. but have seen this, including very quiet rounds that did clear the barrel (stopped to check and found powder all over the chamber). Guy?

 

Seems unlikely, but I'll take your word for it...  

 

In any case, I have never experienced this one myself.  

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Could you have had case that split or separated? Thanks, Eric

[ChemistShooter]

I inspected the case. Looked fine as far as I could tell, threw it in the garbage anyway. Bullet was stuck in the lands exactly like my no-powder squibs.

 

I clean ultrasonically.

 

Procedure:

----Decap all brass in a Lee Challenger press with a Lee Decapping Die. (I like cleaning the primer pockets too.)

---Clean ultrasonically in three steps:

1. Two teaspoons salt, two cups vinegar, one tablespoon dish soap, 4 cups (or thereabouts) boiling water. Sonicate thirty minutes.

2. One teaspoon baking soda in 8 cups hot tap water. (Did this originally to neutralize the vinegar, but it turned out to clean too. Water turns black.) Sonicate thirty minutes.

3. Repeat step 2.

4. Rinse with tap water. Rinse with denatured ethanol to remove water and allow to dry overnight. It will be bone-dry.

5. Store empty cases in bullet boxes. They sit for at least a week before I use them.

 

Lubing procedure:

Slide a piece of cardboard over cases and turn over. Remove bullet box and inspect cases for blue streaks and cracks. Spray One-Shot into Ziploc. Seal Ziploc and rub bag to get a uniform coating on the inside. Pour 100 cases into bag and rub and tumble bag.  Dump cases in case feeder. This has been working fine for thousands of rounds.

 

Contaminated powder occurred to me but didn't seem likely given my cleaning and lubing procedure.

 

If it's not the crimp then I like Memphis45's theory. Piece of random crap on the primer.

 

Thanks to all.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by ChemistShooter
update with new info

[ChuckS]

33 minutes ago, Ken6PPC said:

 

Seems unlikely, but I'll take your word for it... 

That's what I thought. I finally have one round from that lot of ammo that did not fire. I opened the case (collet bullet puller) and found that there were just little slivers of compound under the anvil arms. I popped open a few others and found primers with parts of the compound missing.

 

ETA: this was with "new" WSP and N-340. The cases were salvaged from loads I made with some IMI frangible .40 bullets. The weighed 125 gr but had the form factor of 180's. They were spontaneously cracking becoming wad cutters! Lots of surface in the case with little mass. Took many whacks to get the bullets out. I really should of been doing something else with my time since that was before I retired..

Edited April 21, 2019 by ChuckS

[Ken6PPC]

Just now, ChuckS said:

That's what I thought. I finally have one round from that lot of ammo that did not fire. I opened the case (collet bullet puller) and found that there were little slivers of compound under the anvil arms. I popped open a few others and found primers with parts of the compound missing.

 

Hmm, it still seems likely that if a couple kernels of powder ignited, they would ignite all the rest of the powder.  Again, unless the powder was contaminated...  

 

Of course, I am just speculating at this point - I have never experienced this!  LOL!  

[ChuckS]

Just now, Ken6PPC said:

 

Hmm, it still seems likely that if a couple kernels of powder ignited, they would ignite all the rest of the powder.  Again, unless the powder was contaminated...  

 

Of course, I am just speculating at this point - I have never experienced this!  LOL!  

I actually brushed some of the powder out of the gun and lit it on fire. It burned.

[Ken6PPC]

1 minute ago, ChuckS said:

I actually brushed some of the powder out of the gun and lit it on fire. It burned.

 

OK, I'm at a loss here...  

[Ken6PPC]

36 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

I actually brushed some of the powder out of the gun and lit it on fire. It burned.

 

OK, I got it figured out. 

 

After you pulled the frangible bullets and dumped the old powder out, you wet tumbled the cases (with primers still seated in the PP) for at least 49.65 hours. 

 

Then, immediately after dumping the pins and soap/water solution, you reloaded them. 

 

THAT explains why the primers were so weak and the priming mixture was so broken up.  Of course, the moisture left in the bottom of the case served to dampen what primer mixture DID ignite, and insulated the rest of the powder, preventing it from igniting as well.  

 

Don't you just LOVE it when an explanation comes together like that?....  I must be a genius!     

 

BTW, it was the butler - with the wrench - in the parlor!  

[ChuckS]

And don't forget that there was a can of One Shot nearby.

[Ken6PPC]

4 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

And don't forget that there was a can of One Shot nearby.

 

LOL!  

[Guy Neill]

Generally, when the primer fires and does not ignite the powder charge, you will see some slightly melted or fused powder granules, but none that actually lit off.

 

If any of the powder ignited, but did not sustain, it would suggest contamination of the powder.  Contaminated powder will usually see some clumping of the granules, but these could break apart with efforts to clear the gun.  This is more commonly seen if loaded rounds are disassembled.

 

However, contamination of the primer or insufficient priming compound seems more likely.  Speaking of contamination of the priming compound, it would not fire at all if completely contaminated.

 

Primer contamination at the factory will usually see more than a single primer contaminated.  Insufficient priming compound may occur with a single primer if, say, a corner cup is not filled completely during the application of the priming compound.

 

There are (at least) two plates used in making primers.  One has the primer cups, and one has the priming compound.  I don't recall the number of primers to a plate (but perhaps 100 x 100, perhaps not that many) (and it may vary between makers), but the priming compound is applied to the plate manually, then is matched to the plate with the primer cups and the compound is pressed into the cups.  If the operator filling the compound plate is not careful with the squeegee, they could miss or incompletely fill a cavity, resulting in a partial amount of the compound.  The amount of compound is controlled by the thickness of the plate (and the diameter of the primer being made),, but it is the job of the operator to ensure filling all the holes completely.

[AHI]

3 hours ago, ChemistShooter said:

I inspected the case. Looked fine as far as I could tell, threw it in the garbage anyway. Bullet was stuck in the lands exactly like my no-powder squibs.

 

I clean ultrasonically.

 

Procedure:

----Decap all brass in a Lee Challenger press with a Lee Decapping Die. (I like cleaning the primer pockets too.)

---Clean ultrasonically in three steps:

1. Two teaspoons salt, two cups vinegar, one tablespoon dish soap, 4 cups (or thereabouts) boiling water. Sonicate thirty minutes.

2. One teaspoon baking soda in 8 cups hot tap water. (Did this originally to neutralize the vinegar, but it turned out to clean too. Water turns black.) Sonicate thirty minutes.

3. Repeat step 2.

4. Rinse with tap water. Rinse with denatured ethanol to remove water and allow to dry overnight. It will be bone-dry.

5. Store empty cases in bullet boxes. They sit for at least a week before I use them.

 

Lubing procedure:

Slide a piece of cardboard over cases and turn over. Remove bullet box and inspect cases for blue streaks and cracks. Spray One-Shot into Ziploc. Seal Ziploc and rub bag to get a uniform coating on the inside. Pour 100 cases into bag and rub and tumble bag.  Dump cases in case feeder. This has been working fine for thousands of rounds.

 

Contaminated powder occurred to me but didn't seem likely given my cleaning and lubing procedure.

 

If it's not the crimp then I like Memphis45's theory. Piece of random crap on the primer.

 

Thanks to all.

 

 

Are you reusing the denatured alcohol?    

[Hi-Power Jack]

13 hours ago, ChemistShooter said:

 

The primer fired---the powder did NOT.

 

When you say "the primer fired", did you hear it fire ?    Or, did you find the primer dented

upon inspection after the squib, and assumed it had "fired" ?

 

I've suspected (never proved) that I have had failures to fire with a dented primer

because the old fired primer had never been extracted during the reloading process.

 

Left the old fired primer in the case, loaded the powder and bullet, and No Bang.

 

At first, I thought the primer had failed - but thinking about it, I suspect it is more

likely that the old fired primer had never been extracted and replaced.

[Hi-Power Jack]

11 hours ago, ChemistShooter said:

 . Pour 100 cases into bag and rub and tumble bag.  Dump cases in case feeder.  

 

Do you reload the cases immediately after lubing them ?   Or, are you allowing

the cases to dry before you reload them ?

 

Could be a problem if the cases are still wet.

[Ken6PPC]

51 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

When you say "the primer fired", did you hear it fire ?    Or, did you find the primer dented

upon inspection after the squib, and assumed it had "fired" ?

 

I've suspected (never proved) that I have had failures to fire with a dented primer

because the old fired primer had never been extracted during the reloading process.

 

Left the old fired primer in the case, loaded the powder and bullet, and No Bang.

 

At first, I thought the primer had failed - but thinking about it, I suspect it is more

likely that the old fired primer had never been extracted and replaced.

 

Yeah, I think this is the most logical explanation - old fired primer left in case. 

 

He only THOUGHT the primer had fired...  

[hamiltonian]

On 4/21/2019 at 6:02 PM, ChemistShooter said:

Procedure:

----Decap all brass in a Lee Challenger press with a Lee Decapping Die. (I like cleaning the primer pockets too.)

---Clean ultrasonically in three steps:

1. Two teaspoons salt, two cups vinegar, one tablespoon dish soap, 4 cups (or thereabouts) boiling water. Sonicate thirty minutes.

2. One teaspoon baking soda in 8 cups hot tap water. (Did this originally to neutralize the vinegar, but it turned out to clean too. Water turns black.) Sonicate thirty minutes.

3. Repeat step 2.

4. Rinse with tap water. Rinse with denatured ethanol to remove water and allow to dry overnight. It will be bone-dry.

5. Store empty cases in bullet boxes. They sit for at least a week before I use them.

 

Lubing procedure:

Slide a piece of cardboard over cases and turn over. Remove bullet box and inspect cases for blue streaks and cracks. Spray One-Shot into Ziploc. Seal Ziploc and rub bag to get a uniform coating on the inside. Pour 100 cases into bag and rub and tumble bag.  Dump cases in case feeder. This has been working fine for thousands of rounds.

I feel lazy, now.  I only tumble brass with corn cob media until they are mostly clean and then put them in a plastic box and squirt Dillon spray lube on them.  I immediately dump them in the case feeder without even letting them dry.  I've loaded tens and tens of thousands of rounds like that and never had a squib.  The only problem is an occasional backward primer in my practice rounds, but they don't ignite.

[lgh]

7 hours ago, hamiltonian said:

I feel lazy, now.  I only tumble brass with corn cob media until they are mostly clean and then put them in a plastic box and squirt Dillon spray lube on them.  I immediately dump them in the case feeder without even letting them dry.  I've loaded tens and tens of thousands of rounds like that and never had a squib.  The only problem is an occasional backward primer in my practice rounds, but they don't ignite.

Me too. I just run the brass through walnut and then corn cob media with car polish. Nice and shiny. Never clean primer pockets. Occasional backward primer or other minor glitch that is easy to detect. Blow out the 650 after each session. Been doing it that way for 100k + rounds.