To DQ or Not to DQ

[Boudreaux78]

The scenario: local match and many competitors are also serving as ROs running the timer and the pad. All ROs are certified through NORI. Shooter is seen committing a safety violation by a RO who is not running the timer or the pad. The result of this violation by rule is a DQ. The RO with the timer did not see the violation and the RO with the pad thought they did see it.

 

Should the shooter be DQed? Why or why not?

[Hi-Power Jack]

8 minutes ago, Boudreaux78 said:

  The RO with the timer did not see the violation and the RO with the pad thought they did see it.

 

Should the shooter be DQed? 

 

No DQ unless someone actually saw it - not "thought they saw it" (warning for a "thought they saw it").

[perttime]

Was the RO who saw the alleged violation at that Stage in an official capacity?

[Hi-Power Jack]

54 minutes ago, perttime said:

Was the RO who saw the alleged violation at that Stage in an official capacity?

 

But, he didn't "see the violation".   

 

He "thought he saw a violation".    Whatever that means     

[perttime]

48 minutes ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

But, he didn't "see the violation".   

 

He "thought he saw a violation".    Whatever that means     

What I read is:

RO with timer didn't see it.

RO with pad thought he saw it.

Yet another person with RO status "saw" it.

 

That said, recently I was the guy with the pad and thought a competitor broke 180. The RO with the timer said it was close but not over 180. Most of the time, I'll take the word of the guy who is running with the competitor.

[Sarge]

If an RO is not actually involved in an official capacity AT THE TIME, he is just another member of the peanut gallery.

[GrumpyOne]

2 hours ago, Sarge said:

If an RO is not actually involved in an official capacity AT THE TIME, he is just another member of the peanut gallery.

A little thread drift here... Question: Dropping a gun, outside the COF, would you have to get an RO that was working the match to pick it up for you, instead of an RO that was not working, but shooting the match? But the rules simply say an RO must retrieve it.

 

A dropped gun must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will 
ensure it is unloaded and properly secured in the competitor's holster or 
a suitable container. 

 

If an RO that is not working the match can pick up a dropped gun (outside of the COF), then isn't any RO shooting the match but not working it also there in a somewhat official capacity, and therefore also able to call a DQ? Say a shooter walks up to the safe table and loads a full mag into their gun, but an RO that is working the match does not see it, but an RO that is just a shooter in the match does...If it were you as the RO that was just shooting the match, would you let a safety infraction go? 

[perttime]

7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”, “Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity at the match. ... ...

[jdk129]

Safety is everyone's responsibility. I'm a certified safety officer and chief safety officer.

 

If I see someone doing something not safe and no match RO/SO sees it, I'll take responsibility to correct the situation. 

 

In your example, I would immediately stop the shooter with the loaded firearm in the safe area. Have them unload it and show clear, explain what they just did and then we'd both go find a match official to determine a course of action. 

 

In a 3-gun match, I had a shooter come to the starting position with his pistol already loaded and holstered, his shotgun in one hand and rifle in the other. Both long guns were unloaded. At that point, we had a discussion about his loaded handgun with the MD present. 

 

v/r,

Jeff

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said:

A little thread drift here... Question: Dropping a gun, outside the COF, would you have to get an RO that was working the match to pick it up for you, instead of an RO that was not working, but shooting the match? But the rules simply say an RO must retrieve it.

 

A dropped gun must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will 
ensure it is unloaded and properly secured in the competitor's holster or 
a suitable container. 

 

If an RO that is not working the match can pick up a dropped gun (outside of the COF), then isn't any RO shooting the match but not working it also there in a somewhat official capacity, and therefore also able to call a DQ? Say a shooter walks up to the safe table and loads a full mag into their gun, but an RO that is working the match does not see it, but an RO that is just a shooter in the match does...If it were you as the RO that was just shooting the match, would you let a safety infraction go? 

An RO not working a match better not pick up a dropped gun. He would be DQed. 

 

Think about this. When we fire our last stage of the day we often do a mass gun bagging ceremony. Only one person handles that. The RO working the stage. I ahoot with a local RM and he waits for the RO just like we all do. 

[Boudreaux78]

So that’s the million dollar question, at a local match, everyone helps out and often times on one stage there will be multiple ROs. So when does an RO stop being an RO or they responsible for safety no matter where/what they are doing? 

 

For clarification, this is not a level 2 or above match with dedicated ROs.

[Sarge]

59 minutes ago, jdk129 said:

Safety is everyone's responsibility. I'm a certified safety officer and chief safety officer.

 

If I see someone doing something not safe and no match RO/SO sees it, I'll take responsibility to correct the situation. 

 

In your example, I would immediately stop the shooter with the loaded firearm in the safe area. Have them unload it and show clear, explain what they just did and then we'd both go find a match official to determine a course of action. 

 

In a 3-gun match, I had a shooter come to the starting position with his pistol already loaded and holstered, his shotgun in one hand and rifle in the other. Both long guns were unloaded. At that point, we had a discussion about his loaded handgun with the MD present. 

 

v/r,

Jeff

I might entertain you bringing me a shooter from somewhere other than my stage but you can be a safety officer(whatever that is) but you better not stop a shooter under real RO control during a course of fire. Speaking USPSA .

[Boudreaux78]

What is a “real RO?” Guess that’s the question. If a club recognizes a person as a RO, does he have to be actively serving as an RO during a course of fire to call a safety violation? And even if the competitor is not DQed, is it right to stop an observed safety violation? 

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, Boudreaux78 said:

So that’s the million dollar question, at a local match, everyone helps out and often times on one stage there will be multiple ROs. So when does an RO stop being an RO or they responsible for safety no matter where/what they are doing? 

 

For clarification, this is not a level 2 or above match with dedicated ROs.

All the locals I shoot have one RO PER SQUAD who has his fees comped. He is the man for 90% of the match. When he is on deck, shooting, Reloading mags, one of us steps in and run shooters. At that time only there are two match RO’s who can make a stop call. Perhaps 3 if we have a certified guy on the scoring device. Sometimes an RO’s wife or whatever will score and they are in no position to call anything.

there are some obvious exceptions that go back to the “everyone is a safety officer” train of thought. Somebody steps up on a berm everybody should be calling stop. Etc.

  If I’m running a shooter and somebody stops the shooter for a 180 and I didn’t see it he is getting a reshoot because we can’t just let a shooter DQ another shooter.

 I have also been on squads with brand new RO’s who will ask us to keep an eye on them. I once saw a new shooter do a complete 360 with a gun and the new RO sort of just stood there with that,”WTF JUST HAPPENED” look on his face. About 10 of us yelled stop and pointed out to the RO his missed call.

But those kind of things are rare.

[Boudreaux78]

By rule, both the RO and the ARO are to be certified. The ARO has just as much responsibility calling a safety violation as the RO with a timer. This has to do with angles and can’t see everything from one position. 

 

From your example, which doesn’t happen often at all, other ROs/shooters will call stop if the RO missed the call/didn’t see it. This is definitely not a common thing.

[Sarge]

10 minutes ago, Boudreaux78 said:

What is a “real RO?” Guess that’s the question. If a club recognizes a person as a RO, does he have to be actively serving as an RO during a course of fire to call a safety violation? And even if the competitor is not DQed, is it right to stop an observed safety violation? 

Like I said a real RO is one who is actively engaged as part of the match. Usually it , “hey Sarge, you wanna run a squad for me?” If yes then I’m an RO. If no them I’m just a veteran CRO shooting the match with zero authority. Now, I do get asked a lot of rules questions and I try to help out in that regard. But it has to be a blatant obvious thing for anybody else to stop a shooter. Sometimes new shooters do dumb things. I have been scoring targets and heard “STOP”. Come to find out the on deck shooter put his gun on the table already for table start. I have watched a new shooter airgunning his draw and knock his gun out of his holster. I called stop to try to keep him from picking it up but he did anyway.

  One thing that screws us all up on occasion is that the rules are really written for level II and up. Often, locals are left out and left up to us to adapt.

[Sarge]

8 minutes ago, Boudreaux78 said:

By rule, both the RO and the ARO are to be certified. The ARO has just as much responsibility calling a safety violation as the RO with a timer. 

Again, if you read the USPSA rule book this is not true in all cases. For level I matches there are no requirements other than a willingness to help

Appendix A1 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Sarge

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

 I ahoot with a local RM and he waits for the RO just like we all do. 

 

Quoted cause I like the word "ahoot" but wasn't sure I would ever have another chance to use it 

[Bulldog317]

This could kinda go a few different ways, especially for a Level 1.

First off if the RO running the shooter, who is the closest to the shooter didn't see it, and the RO/scorekeeper only "thinks" he saw it no DQ...just a warning.

If it was a blatant violation then most of the squad would have seen it and someone would have or should have yelled Stop.

That being said we all may know at least  one RO or  SO  whether they are new or on the down slope who happen to miss calls or are just too lenient  on making the calls and if you have a squad with a bunch of new shooters then I might be ok with a SO watching from the back make the call, but I agree they should be talked to and get a re-shoot.

I know for sure nobody likes to have a squad of 8 and 6 of them act like range lawyers...drives me crazy.

We did just however had situation where the SO was new, just started  running shooters and the shooter was brand new, first match ever. Starting position was facing up range, on the buzzer turn and draw.

This shooter was facing up range and instead of the SO telling him to "turn and  face the berm" load and make ready, the SO gave the command "Shooter load and make ready" he pulled his gun out and pointed it at the whole squad and just about got his mag in before the entire squad yelled STOP!  I do believe we scared the crap out of both of them. It was so loud the MD heard it and came over to find out what was going on.

 

[Sarge]

You IDPA guys......

unless it’s the guys first USPSA match I just say make ready on uprange starts. Most guys I shoot with want to turn and draw a time or two before shooting the stage.

[GrumpyOne]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

An RO not working a match better not pick up a dropped gun. He would be DQed. 

 

Think about this. When we fire our last stage of the day we often do a mass gun bagging ceremony. Only one person handles that. The RO working the stage. I ahoot with a local RM and he waits for the RO just like we all do. 

Sarge, where does it say in the rules that an RO not working the match would be DQ'd for picking up a dropped gun? 

[3gunDQ]

I dont know where the hell yall shoot but we dont have ROs "working the match" at any locals I have EVER shot. The squad handles that s#!t and we rotate people in to share the load. I was under the impression that ANYONE can stop a shooter for a safety violation (180)... you point a gun at me Im yelling STOP IDGaF if anyone else sees it or not... you can argue all day long with the MD or RM but if you break the 180 you DQed.

[L3324temp]

I dont know where the hell yall shoot but we dont have ROs "working the match" at any locals I have EVER shot. The squad handles that s#!t and we rotate people in to share the load.

This is certainly how many local matches operate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boudreaux78]

4 minutes ago, 3gunDQ said:

I dont know where the hell yall shoot but we dont have ROs "working the match" at any locals I have EVER shot. The squad handles that s#!t and we rotate people in to share the load. I was under the impression that ANYONE can stop a shooter for a safety violation (180)... you point a gun at me Im yelling STOP IDGaF if anyone else sees it or not... you can argue all day long with the MD or RM but if you break the 180 you DQed.

I don’t disagree at all. And I don’t necessarily care if the MD upholds the DQ!

[Hi-Power Jack]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

 For level I  matches there are no requirements other than a willingness to help

 

Heck, they've even pressed me into service as an RO,

 

and I'm deaf and blind