RJH Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 46 minutes ago, B_RAD said: Yes, but everyone is playing with equal equipment. The same clubs. Yes, I know some clubs are better quality but it's the same as tow guys shooting 1911's against each other. Four guys shoot classifiers, with 4 completely different guns, what we now call open, limited, pcc, and single stack, they have the same hit factor, what i am purposing is that they would shoot against each other, regardless of equipment. I don't have any real issue with what we do now, but every week there is a thread on limited minor, combining ss and production, can i do x to my production gun, etc., etc., this would eliminate all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, rowdyb said: I'd much much rather keep division and kill classification. Completely. Overall within your division and nothing else. I'm also a mean troll/ogre and would do away with all category stuff as well. Probably why I'm not in charge.... Sounds like 3 gun. Excellent idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, frgood said: I think the OPs original point of a handicapping system was missed. As in golf, handicapping is, from my understanding, the method to level the playing field. Correct, how you actually would be all that mattered, not what you shot it with. People sometimes have trouble looking at things from a different angle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said: Sounds like 3 gun. Excellent idea. 3 gun is gay, and will be as long as everyone shoots 9mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, RJH said: 3 gun is gay, and will be as long as everyone shoots 9mm Now you're trolling your own thread? After your comment about how $300 shotguns shoot with $10000 guns in clay sports (which you also claim to know little about) I think the driving force behind your proposal is becoming obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said: We should kill Major and make everything score minor. That would be cool. As long as minor = 155 PF across the board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, frgood said: As in golf, handicapping is, from my understanding, the method to level the playing field. And that is good how? And relates to an equipment based (vs. skill based) discussion in what way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said: Now you're trolling your own thread? After your comment about how $300 shotguns shoot with $10000 guns in clay sports (which you also claim to know little about) I think the driving force behind your proposal is becoming obvious. I don't say they win, just don't have their special division. Sorry if i hurt your feelings with the 9mm comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, TonytheTiger said: And that is good how? And relates to an equipment based (vs. skill based) discussion in what way? Four guys shoot classifiers, with 4 completely different guns, what we now call open, limited, pcc, and single stack, they have the same hit factor, what i am purposing is that they would shoot against each other, regardless of equipment. I don't have any real issue with what we do now, but every week there is a thread on limited minor, combining ss and production, can i do x to my production gun, etc., etc., this would eliminate all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, RJH said: Sorry if i hurt your feelings with the 9mm comment Not really, I accidentally pick up tons of 40 brass at matches, all the water that your comment didn't hold soothed my sensitive feelers. What your talking about will just change the way things are labeled, nothing else. With a few exceptions M and GM class will just be synonymous with PCC or Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTJer Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I guess I'd jump to Limited or PCC from Production if this came about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, CTJer said: I guess I'd jump to Limited or PCC from Production if this came about. Don't worry, it ain't gonna happen haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
louu Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Holy s#!t is it the middle of winter already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsessiveshooter Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 A class win is meaningless, unless it means you get to take home a cool new toy at a match with a prize table. The dividing lines between the classes are arbitrary. A 1st C class trophy is like getting an award for earning the highest C grade on a college exam. What exactly are you celebrating? The only comparison that matters is where you stand vs. the winner, or in this case, 100%. Not that this thread was serious in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frgood Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 2 hours ago, TonytheTiger said: And that is good how? And relates to an equipment based (vs. skill based) discussion in what way? It is too early to say if it would be good. The process would have to be worked out. Hence this discussion. Some factors when building a handicap system have been laid out in this thread. I am sure there are some more factors to consider how it shold be built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Just now, frgood said: It is too early to say if it would be good. The process would have to be worked out. Hence this discussion. Some factors when building a handicap system have been laid out in this thread. I am sure there are some more factors to consider how it shold be built. Fair enough. For the record, I've never seen a handicap system that didn't ruin a competitive sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frgood Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 minute ago, TonytheTiger said: Fair enough. For the record, I've never seen a handicap system that didn't ruin a competitive sport. I'm not completely sure how it works in golf. But I guess that it does allow individuals to compete at a local level. Aren't those on the pro tour all scratch players? I think within our sport there would be a massive debate regarding how to balance equipment in addition to the simpler tasks of individual skill levels. Plus the result only may work for level I matches, which are more casual in it's competitiveness. At the higher level matches, the skill level starts to normalize. Although the equipment differential may put us right back to where we are now. So, a quick thought may find that we keep the equipment classification but D shooters get a 60% boost on their scores? This may only simplify the sponsors prize availability. So more thought and input is needed from those with a better mind than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, frgood said: I'm not completely sure how it works in golf. But I guess that it does allow individuals to compete at a local level. Aren't those on the pro tour all scratch players? I think within our sport there would be a massive debate regarding how to balance equipment in addition to the simpler tasks of individual skill levels. Plus the result only may work for level I matches, which are more casual in it's competitiveness. At the higher level matches, the skill level starts to normalize. Although the equipment differential may put us right back to where we are now. So, a quick thought may find that we keep the equipment classification but D shooters get a 60% boost on their scores? This may only simplify the sponsors prize availability. So more thought and input is needed from those with a better mind than I. Pro golfers have handicaps way below scratch. Scratch means you can shoot par. Pros need +3 handicap to even make it to the tour and about +5 to make a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frgood Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 29 minutes ago, Sarge said: Pro golfers have handicaps way below scratch. Scratch means you can shoot par. Pros need +3 handicap to even make it to the tour and about +5 to make a living. Good to know. Does the model work or, as some have said, it degrades the sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 52 minutes ago, obsessiveshooter said: A class win is meaningless, unless it means you get to take home a cool new toy at a match with a prize table. The dividing lines between the classes are arbitrary. A 1st C class trophy is like getting an award for earning the highest C grade on a college exam. What exactly are you celebrating? The only comparison that matters is where you stand vs. the winner, or in this case, 100%. Not that this thread was serious in the first place... I think doing a heads up match would make classes more meaningful, and end up with better prizes for class wins. As it is now a person can division shop and take home a nice L10 or revolver, or in some cases a SS trophy, and have beat basically no one. And as you drop down in classes through the divisions you really are just getting a participation trophy. If the only thing that matters is where you stand in comparison to the winner then heads up is the only way to go. Two serious question though; do all the people who are worried about their division actually think they are going to win majors or nationals? If not, why be scared of heads up, especially heads up with a handicap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsessiveshooter Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 If I get you right, you would like all divisions to compete against each other, and minor divisions and lesser capacity divisions would each get a specific handicap. I personally would love to be able to compare my score in a meaningful way with a buddy's score who is shooting another division. But, what are the chances of them getting the handicap right, and even if it were right, how many people would actually believe it was right? That's all people would talk about on the forums from then on out. Still, the idea has its merits. It would be cool to suddenly find out that the lone weirdo L10 shooter at your local club is actually one of the best shooters in the region, because his score can now be compared directly with everyone else's. [still not gonna happen though] How about for now, the handicap gets figured out and USPSA starts posting Overall scores? Then HOA will mean something to more than just the Open shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 minute ago, obsessiveshooter said: If I get you right, you would like all divisions to compete against each other, and minor divisions and lesser capacity divisions would each get a specific handicap. I personally would love to be able to compare my score in a meaningful way with a buddy's score who is shooting another division. But, what are the chances of them getting the handicap right, and even if it were right, how many people would actually believe it was right? That's all people would talk about on the forums from then on out. Still, the idea has its merits. It would be cool to suddenly find out that the lone weirdo L10 shooter at your local club is actually one of the best shooters in the region, because his score can now be compared directly with everyone else's. [still not gonna happen though] How about for now, the handicap gets figured out and USPSA starts posting Overall scores? Then HOA will mean something to more than just the Open shooters. You got me completely wrong Four guys shoot classifiers, with 4 completely different guns, for instance, what we now call open, limited, pcc, and single stack, they have the same hit factor on their classifier, what i am purposing is that they would shoot against each other, regardless of equipment. While doing it this way a PCC or open shooter will end up HOA (just like they do now), in all the other classes down the line any gun could win. 99.99% of us are not competing for the win at a major anyway, that is why i think doing it this way would give the class wins more meaning than they have now. People talk about "classes are stupid" and "if you ain't first you are last" but if someone says lets shoot heads up everyone acts like the world is ending. I figure most people on these forums are only competing for a class win anyway, either that or there are a large number of major and national champions here on enos. I don't have any real issue with what we do now, but every week there is a thread on limited minor, combining ss and production, can i do x to my production gun, etc., etc., this would eliminate all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 So.... if I shoot a bunch in SS or production, but then buy an Open gun, I am suddenly A class from B class? Just shoot all your matches in production and go to sectionals with an open gun to win your class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 17, 2018 Author Share Posted August 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, IronArcher said: So.... if I shoot a bunch in SS or production, but then buy an Open gun, I am suddenly A class from B class? Just shoot all your matches in production and go to sectionals with an open gun to win your class? This could definitely happen, luckily we have no sandbaggers now. They could get a match bump for it though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 What would be the point of shooting any division other than open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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