ahtsay Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Hello. Im a newbie in search of my first gun, and I'm hoping you guys can help me. I'm planning to join IPSC competitions, in the limited division. I've been researching for months and almost bought a Para S16-40 Limited. However, since that didnt work out, I've decided to just build a gun. You know, buy the receiver, the slide, barrel, hammer, beavertail...etc. and have a gunsmith put it together for me. Just today I was talking to a friend who told me that it is better to buy a "mass produced" (im not really sure if a ParaOrd is considered mass produced, please correct me if Im wrong) pistol than have one built. The reason he said was that with a custom built pistol, although you can have the freedom to choose the parts that you like, will be prone to gunsmith error. He said that a gunsmith will never be able to fit a gun perfectly. There will be small fitting discrepancies that would either limit the guns performance or longevity. This is because the gunsmith might not have the precision measuring tools to do an exact fit of the parts. As for a gun that is mass produced (meaning a built gun), all the parts are measured correctly so that the fit is perfect and the guns performance is at its maximum. Is there any truth in this? Can anyone give any insights on this? Hope i can get some advice from you, I'm so confused! There are just too many choices out there for a newbie and every advice seems to depend on who you talk to. Anyway, thanks in advance, I hope I made some sense in my question. ahts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 (edited) Welcome to the forum. It all depends on how much you wish to spend, and what you prefer. Many factory 1911 type guns need some adjustments to get them to run reliably, or to adjust them to the shooter (you). Many guns work fine right out of the box, but not all of them. A good gunsmith can build a gun (fit, finish, and reliability) better than most factory guns are made. The gunsmiths I know that are mentioned on this forum build better than factory guns. Edited to add: M2i Custom (Matt Mclearn, excellent smith, current wait time about 6 weeks, dependent on parts) Edited August 6, 2005 by GuildSF4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 I shot a Para 40 limited for 5-6 years. It wasn't bad. I had to add a mag well, a tungsten guide rod, and change the safety. But I liked it. I decide to go with a STI edge. Best desigion I ever made. I made a phone call. Told the man what I wanted, and had it in a month. Mind you that both are box guns. The para gave me good service. But the edge is a better choice, in my book. By switching to the edge I gave up a couple of rounds in the mags. But the balance and recoil are so different I've never looked back. A good gunsmith is going to make you wait 6-8 months for the finished product. If he is a good 1911 man, and if he knows how to make a gun run you're going to be lucky. Most 1911 smittys make a real good bullseye gun. They aren't made to race with. You didn't mention any financial limitations. If you don't mind putting 3-4 hundred more in a limited gun, look at Bedell custom stuff. Really cool stuff. Everybody has an openion. That's mine. If you want to check out Shooters Connection's web site here's a link http://www.shootersconnection.com/ Chuck usually has Bedell guns in stock. He gets good turn-around time on special orders from them and STI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azone41 Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 I don't think Chuck has any Bedell Customs in stock. I had to wait 16 weeks for my new one. I have been told the wait is now 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Hello. Im a newbie in search of my first gun, and I'm hoping you guys can help me. I'm planning to join IPSC competitions, in the limited division. I've been researching for months and almost bought a Para S16-40 Limited. However, since that didnt work out, I've decided to just build a gun. You know, buy the receiver, the slide, barrel, hammer, beavertail...etc. and have a gunsmith put it together for me. Just today I was talking to a friend who told me that it is better to buy a "mass produced" (im not really sure if a ParaOrd is considered mass produced, please correct me if Im wrong) pistol than have one built. The reason he said was that with a custom built pistol, although you can have the freedom to choose the parts that you like, will be prone to gunsmith error. He said that a gunsmith will never be able to fit a gun perfectly. There will be small fitting discrepancies that would either limit the guns performance or longevity. This is because the gunsmith might not have the precision measuring tools to do an exact fit of the parts. As for a gun that is mass produced (meaning a built gun), all the parts are measured correctly so that the fit is perfect and the guns performance is at its maximum. Is there any truth in this? Can anyone give any insights on this? Hope i can get some advice from you, I'm so confused! There are just too many choices out there for a newbie and every advice seems to depend on who you talk to. Anyway, thanks in advance, I hope I made some sense in my question. ahts <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Umm, yea, you see, your friend is talking nonsense. A gunsmith, someone who makes a living working on and building guns, has the tools and knowledge to build a gun for you. You can chose from any of the "name" smiths. Bedell, Brazos, EGW, Millenium, M2, just to name a few. You can also chose from the dozens, if not hundreds of smaller 'smiths, like mine. The guy who builds my stuff is also a shooter. His stuff works and is cheaper than the name smith's. Your friend has it backward, the factory built guns are often the loser fit ones. A custom built gun from a gunsmith will generally be tighter and more accurate than anything out of any factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 All I have to say is: 1) Figure out if you're serious. If you buy a new custom pistol, then decide you don't want to pursue the sport, you're going to take a bath on your gear any way you cut it. Buy a $400 to $500 pistol and shoot production or Lim-10 for a while before you go whole hog. Or shoot your carry gun. 2) If you decide you're serious, buy a *new* custom gun. Look hard at the Brazos semi-custom. http://www.brazoscustom.com/sc_limited.htm I cheaped out and bought a used pistol. I am now on the verge of spending as much to fix a used pistol as I could have bought new from Bob. Not to mention all the hours of my life I will never get back learning how to be a backwoods gunsmith. There's a Kodiak for sale here, but I don't know if it's going to be $1300 more reliable and accurate than a Brazos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 A good gunsmith is going to make you wait 6-8 months for the finished product. If he is a good 1911 man, and if he knows how to make a gun run you're going to be lucky. Most 1911 smittys make a real good bullseye gun. They aren't made to race with. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Many smiths will make you wait that long (and even longer) but you can probably find a gun from one of the highly regarded ones in a couple/three months. From all of the stories on this forum, I would never buy a gun straight from the factory. If I did, it would go straight to a smith for reliability testing/fitting/adjusting. It's the worst when you get your gear, targets, etc. together, drive out to the range, set-up, and then have the gun malf on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 I'm still ROTFLMAO at your friend. Sheesh... Ok... The Para's that you'd buy off the shelf are, in fact, mass produced. A custom built pistol, built by a reliable smith, will make a factory gun look cheap and shoddy. The fact of the matter is, any smith worth anything will have all the tools he needs - the "precision measuring tools" are micrometers, calibers, a Sharpie (or dykem blue), and a Mark I eyeball. The mass produced guns are built quickly with standarized "pre-fit" parts to cut down on the production costs. *THEY* are built with small fitting discrepancies, are generally looser, less accurate, and less reliable than a custom built pistol. It's the opposite of what you're buddy's saying. I've done it both ways, BTW. When done properly, the gun is built with oversize parts that are carefully fitted to one another to insure the tightest possible lockup, longest lifetime, and smoothest, safest, most reliable operation possible with that set of parts. It's not unusual to have to spend the difference between the mass produced gun and the gunsmith gun to get the mass produced gun to run. Not all of them are dogs, like that, but they're out there. That said - you *can* buy a factory gun that, with minor tweaking, will provide you with good service for along time. All the posts above make good points - especially EricW's about deciding how serious you are about this.... If you're not real serious - a Glock might be your best bet until you know... I'm serious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 P.S. I spoke to Bob Londrigan this AM, and he says the current lead time on the SC series is 2 months. 60 short days practicing with your carry gun until you can have your paws on a pistol everyone raves over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 P.S.I spoke to Bob Londrigan this AM, and he says the current lead time on the SC series is 2 months. 60 short days practicing with your carry gun until you can have your paws on a pistol everyone raves over. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's exactly who I was referring to in my post above. You can't get a better gun from anyone IMHO and it's only 2 months. He even has a tuned Edge for immediate delivery: http://brazoscustom.com/edgeplus.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m.e.t. Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I have to agree with EricW. Shoot what you have or buy a solid production or limited 10 pistol. Learn the game and meet the folks in your area. A mega buck limited blaster is not magic. You will still have to learn the fundementals. Go to a few matches and you will get a huge amount of advise about guns. Just wait it out and seperate the wheat from the chaff. There are several great gunsmiths working in small unknown shops all over. Someone in your area can lead you to them or help you spec a gun from one of the fine smiths found on this board. You will spend a lot of money playing this game. Just ask my wife...... But slow down and spend those hard earned dollars wisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 All above posts make lots of sence. Find the "dealers forum", get the contact info for all the 'smiths listed there and give them a call or e-mail them. None of them will steer you wrong. I've had 3 guns built by Clark Custom (whoever said that bullseye 'smiths couldn't build race guns was lying!) and Bob at Brazos is working on the second one for me now. Box guns are for production...JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I believe that there is a tax issue as well. A federal firearm tax. It only applies to the frame, if you buy a complete gun for say $2000 then the tax is based on the $2000. if you buy the frame and the separate bits then the tax only applies to the cost of the frame, about $300-400. I think the tax is 10%, so that's a difference between paying $200 tax or $30-40. Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock17w Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I have been contemplating this same issue. I could either shoot production with my Glock or have a custom gun built and shoot. Since I will be fairly new to IPSC/USPSA, I have decided to shoot my production pistol for a while and save up for the Custom Pistol that I want. That will give me time to learn the game better before I spend thousands on a custom pistol. I am leaning towards a Dawson Precision Custom Pistol. I am a fan of Dave Dawson's work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinity Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 probably the gunsmith ur friend sent a gun to is not really a competent one IMHO...not to be rude or anything but Custom made guns are far better than mass produced guns...some people who bought STIs from STI sent their guns to another smith for some issues it has...i say go for the custom Gun...u won't be sorry..so long as it's a competent 'smith...go with Bedel, Brazos, dawson, benny hill, and lots more....if i was living in the US i'd have my gun built by any of them 'smtihs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basman Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Why don't you concider a USED limited gun? you can usually try before you buy, and all the quarks have been delt with. It will come ready to shoot. Of course it won't be "built" to your spec's but you will save 1/2 or MORE than the cost of a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahtsay Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 First of all, I cant just thank you guys enough for the support you've given me. I was thinking in the same line actually....why do most of the top shooters have custom built guns if a production gun is better? Right? Just to let you know, I live in the Philippines and I am still very unfamiliar with the sport. Maybe its a few bad smiths thats creating the bad reputation for them. I really dont know... Cost is also a problem...as Eric and Xre have mentioned especially since I live in the Philippines. (maybe this is the reason for all my problems ) Guns here cost almost double, the para (S14-40 Limited) i was telling you about will run me around $1600 US. I wanted to get a gun that I wouldnt have to "upgrade" later on. I figured since this is my first gun, I want to get a good one. Even if I dont really get into the sport full time, I can still enjoy shooting my pistol once in awhile anyways and I get the satisfaction of shooting a sweet pistol. Also I think half the fun is actually building the gun since I already have a dream set-up that I fantasize about all the time. hehe!!! I was thinking maybe an SV receiver and a Caspian slide will be a good foundation for the pistol. However this set up might be waaaaay over my budget. In the US, $2000 can go buy you a high end pistol, its just not so over here. Anyways, thank you very much for the inputs, I really appreciate it. If you dont mind, I will keep you posted to my "quest" in buying my first gun. Maybe I can get more insights from you guys as I go along. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achard Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Ahtsay, Don't go for out of the box. Customize gun is better but its still depends on smit. Be sure to inquire first. Heard Tony O is good. I have mine by Danny from ormoc and I just got the gun yesterday and all I can say WOW! I'm very happy with my new gun. Go for S*I or SPS frame. By the way, don't upgrade it will cost you more. Go for customize and beware of peke spare parts. One more, if budget is your concern why not buy CZ for production division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Lito Pible is selling a para framed limited pistol by the late jimmy febre. 95000 ata. dont know if its sold na. its a good buy since i saw it and shot it. its relatively new. pm me and ill give you lito's number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Ah, so your in the Phils. Here's my 2 pesos. I use a heavily customized Armscor widebody with the critical parts replaced with better aftermarket brands. With the amount of ammo I've shot through it plus the reg fees on matches I've shot with it, I could buy an STI Open gun and a Para with change. That should give you a ball park as to how much I've shot it. And it at this point, I still could not out-shoot it. The things I replaced due to damage? A reverse plug that cracked (around 10K rounds) when I was experimenting with an 11# recoil spring and no buff. And the factory sear spring that I broke when I thought I can still improve on the trigger pull done by my smith. What's my point? With our ridiculously high gun prices, don't discount the "lower" ends like Armscor. You can have one custom-tuned and fitted with your hand-picked parts that'll cost you much less than a factory Para. The rest of your money should be spent on ammo, as it should be. But of course, if you have a quarter of a million pesos in budget for the gun and the other important stuff like mags, pouches, holsters, etc. Hey, don't let me stop you from getting the best your money can buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Hmm... I don't think the guys who previously posted were aware that you were in the Philippines. Their comments may have been based on a US based gunsmith (with lots of equipment and experience and training) vs. a factory gun. Given your location I can see that there is some wisdom in what your friend said. I'd say ask around on the reputation of your local gunsmith. If the word of mouth is very, very, very good (check out his shop if you can) I think you should go with a local custom gun. Or you can go with a US gunsmith (though it's going to cost a bit more due to shipping and higher wages) and go that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Glock 17 Production Get to shooting. Figure out the rest later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Glock 17Production Get to shooting. Figure out the rest later. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> +1 Especially the "get to shooting" part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaJoe Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I third the get to the shooting. But if you really want a new-to-you pistol, check the USPSA classifieds. There's some deals to be found on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahtsay Posted August 24, 2005 Author Share Posted August 24, 2005 Hello guys, just a follow up question. I am now currently considering building a gun. I was able to talk to a friend that has been shooting for a long time and he recommended one of the top gunsmith in the country. However, I find his price to be a little high. (estimated to be around $700) My friend keeps telling me that its worth it because he is really good & everything. Of course, being financially challenged, I am full of doubt regarding this. Am I subjecting myself to being robbed at gunpoint? I just want to check with you guys as to how much the typical labor cost would be. Of course the more obvious answer might be "it depends" but I just need an estimate, like a ball park figure just so I know I'm not being ripped off too much . Can we also calculate labor cost as a percentage of the cost of the parts? Say all the parts cost $1500, how much would the labor cost be for putting it all together? Say 20% maybe? Also what kind of waiting time are we looking at here? A couple of months? Hope you guys can help. Thanks again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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