38 Short Colt Brass

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

This is from another thread. I am looking for some basic info on using the 38 Short Colt brass.

Moon clips, loads, dies, reasons to try it? How well will it work in a 627X8 and anything else you can think of.

I know some of you use it but I never have tried and would like to know if it is worth it.

There are mentions all over the revolver section but why not try to get it in one thread?

Thanks,

Gary

[Randy Lee]

This is from another thread.  I am looking for some basic info on using the 38 Short Colt brass.

Moon clips, loads, dies, reasons to try it?  How well will it work in a 627X8 and anything else you can think of. 

I know some of you use it but I never have tried and would like to know if it is worth it.

There are mentions all over the revolver section but why not try to get it in one thread?

Thanks,

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Gary,

I will be using 38 SC for my Steel Challenge Revo. They seem to work well for some of the ICORE guys running 147 gr. bullets as they reload a bit faster than specials.

I'm using the Starline brass with a 124 gr. bullet at around 100pf or so. The primary reason is case volume. Jerry Miculek and I were talking about light steel revos and his experiencing squibs on the first shot out of the holster w/38 spl cases. His draw was forcing the powder all the way forward and the primers had enough force to pop the bullet out of the case before the powder could burn. If he shot the gun over the chrono, he was averaging 800+ fps. If he held the gun muzzle down, he could squib it every time.

The short colt will allow me to run the lighter bullets with better burn characteristics.

Randy

[Carmoney]

I tried a few moonclips that DougC gave me in my 627 and I'll guar-on-tee they drop in faster and easier on the reload. Significantly so.

[Bill Sahlberg]

I pioneered and have have shot .38 Colt Shorts in my 627s and other guns for 10+ years. I use a 130 gr Montana Gold RN with 4.5 gr Universal Clays, a Fed 100 primer at 1.100" OAL and a tight crimp. This is 1130 fps from a 5" bbl, low recoil, accurate and very fast to reload. Starline Brass always works and I never have had any case fatigue. I load full rounds them with a pair of pliers by the hundreds :-) Many guns and many 1,000s of rounds with no troubles. I shoot IPSC, ICORE, and Steel Challenge with this same load. Other powders may work but I can shoot 15 stages without having to clean my cylinder.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I pioneered and have have shot .38 Colt Shorts in my 627s and other guns for 10+ years. I use a 130 gr Montana Gold RN with 4.5 gr Universal Clays, a Fed 100 primer at 1.100" OAL and a tight crimp. This is 1130 fps from a 5" bbl, low recoil, accurate and very fast to reload. Starline Brass always works and I never have had any case fatigue. I load full rounds them with a pair of pliers by the hundreds :-) Many guns and many 1,000s of rounds with no troubles. I shoot IPSC, ICORE, and Steel Challenge with this same load. Other powders may work but I can shoot 15 stages without having to clean my cylinder.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since I have never seen the brass, I need to ask. Is the case head different from 38spl or can they use the same moon clips? Also, do they need their own dies?

Thanks,

Gary

[hdgun]

Hey Gary

Everything about the case is the same, Just Shorter.

When loading, use the same dies you use for 38 special except use a 9mm crimp die. The 38 special die is too long to get a bite on the case. Hense the 9mm die.

Gary, like any other reloading, be carefull and work the load slowlly.

I used the short Colt case for about a year, IMO I did not find the accuracy I was looking for. I since went to 38 long colt. It is about the same length as a super case.

If you want, let me know next match you are going to. I will bring some loaded long colt for you to try.Good luck. John

[DougCarden]

I have done a little experimentation with the short colt. Think of it as a 38 special with 9x19 limitations. It has the 9x19 case volume, so using 9x19 load data reduced works really well as starting loads. I settled on using the West Coast 147rn sized .357 for reloading purposes, and was quite happy. Now that they have changed hands and prices skyrocketed I will have to change bullets. Not sure what I will try. My goal was a 130 power factor load for steel that was marginally accurate out to 25yds. My overall length was 1.150. I had the best accuracy at 25yds with CLAYS, VV310, and Nitro 100. With the plated bullets I ended up crimping them more than you think you would for plated, and ended up with a circular group of 2.2 in @ 25yds. My bore in my gun is .3565. I also shot them in two other guns (627 6in and 686+ 8 3/8) and they were on for steel as well. Be very careful with 158gr bullets and the fast powder, I know of at least one fella that has a new cylinder due to that! (no, not me )

I load the short colt with 38special sizing die, then use 9x19 powder funnel, seater and crimp. With this case and being in the Revo I suggest using a very firm taper crimp, more than just taking the bell off of the case......Hope this helps!

DougC

[Airedale]

This is an interesting thread. Mrs. Airedale shoots a moonclipped 586 for USPSA and her reloads are, for a number of reasons, slow.

I stopped at the local pawn & gun and bought the only box of .38 short colt they had. I'm going to moon these up for her to test drive at the 3 gun match this weekend.

If it works well, I'll get set up to load.

Dave

[shred]

Somebody was telling me that 9x19 fit and ran in his 38 Super 627. Is that a workable alternative?

[Airedale]

Shred,

One of our local revo guys has a 686 in .38 super. He runs 9mm thru it regularly.

I think most posting in this thread have 627's chambered for .357.

I considered having Mrs. Airedale's 586 chambered for 9mm and probably should have. It was going to cost extra and I'm a tightwad. In hindsight, I'll spend more fooling with this .38 short load...but it's fun.

Dave

[AzShooter]

Jeesh, I wonder who that was that had to have the cylinder replaced? :-D.

I had a lot of luck with the .38 short until that happened. I believe it was done when I experimented with Power Pistol which is actually a little slower than Unique.

That experience caused me to stay away from the .38 short until I found data in a loading manual that makes the power factor I want.

I decided it's safer to use tested loads by the manufacuters than to do the testing myself.

I found that Red Dot worked very well at 2.8 grains with a 158 grn bullet which makes ICORE pf. For USPSA try Unique ( I know, dirty) but it will produce 805 with 3.7 grains for a 127 pf.

Get the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Reloading Handbook and it will have loads for 133 grainers as well as 121s.

I really wanted to use Bullseye but the loads that make minor are a little over the max loads listed.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Hey Gary

Everything about the case is the same, Just Shorter.

When loading, use the same dies you use for 38 special except use a 9mm crimp die. The 38 special die is too long to get a bite on the case. Hense the 9mm die.

Gary, like any other reloading, be carefull and work the load slowlly.

I used the short Colt case for about a year, IMO I did not find the accuracy I was looking for. I since went to 38 long colt. It is about the same length as a super case.

If you want, let me know next match you are going to. I will bring some loaded long colt for you to try.Good luck.                  John

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks John, Next time I will probably see you is the Harvard three gun. My August is pretty tight right now. Bass River First Sunday, then nothing until I go to New Hampshire 08-19 for three days of IDPA. I will catch up with you.

To all the others, Thank you for the info. Greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Gary

[cooper_999]

This is from another thread.  I am looking for some basic info on using the 38 Short Colt brass.

Moon clips, loads, dies, reasons to try it?  How well will it work in a 627X8 and anything else you can think of. 

I know some of you use it but I never have tried and would like to know if it is worth it.

There are mentions all over the revolver section but why not try to get it in one thread?

Thanks,

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In Germany at the moment the trend is, to shorten .38Spl brass to ~

23-25mm (0.906 - 0.984 Inch), trying to copy 38Super brass and load them

either with 200grs bullets for standard class or 125grs bullets for open

class, (with Kemira N340 (200grs) or Kemira 3N38/N350 (125grs)). The

intend is, to get all the advantages of the short brass (better in and out

of the cylinder) without changing the cylinder. The cases can be very fine and cheap shortened with the Lee (zip-)trimming accessory

DVC!

Sascha

[JohnRodriguez]

Hello Gary,

I will be using 38 SC for my Steel Challenge Revo. They seem to work well for some of the ICORE guys running 147 gr. bullets as they reload a bit faster than specials.

I'm using the Starline brass with a 124 gr. bullet at around 100pf or so. The primary reason is case volume. Jerry Miculek and I were talking about light steel revos and his experiencing squibs on the first shot out of the holster w/38 spl cases. His draw was forcing the powder all the way forward and the primers had enough force to pop the bullet out of the case before the powder could burn. If he shot the gun over the chrono, he was averaging 800+ fps. If he held the gun muzzle down, he could squib it every time.

The short colt will allow me to run the lighter bullets with better burn characteristics.

Randy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yesterday I went out and was practicing with my new 627 and I remembered what you had said about squibing 38 special loads if the barrel was pointed in a good downward angle. I held the barrel at a good 45 degrees and shoot a couple of moons into the closest anthole I could find, and didn't have a problem at all with squibing. I use 160 gr billy bullet and 3.9 gr VVn310, maybe with lighter bullet 115-124 range I would experience a problem. Just have to experiment with some lighter bullets. I also have 100 pieces of 38 S&W brass. I'll mess around with that and see if it will work also.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I went to my local shop and found one lonely box of 125gr Remington 38 Short Colt. I invested the $14 they wanted and tried it out. It was accurate enough at 25 yards (consistant hits on an 8" plate) but I did not like the way they shaved lead from my 627. I have some Starline Brass Samples on order to see how they work in my moon clips.

If I can connect with John and try the Long Colt, I can at least compare.

Thanks to all,

Gary

[Randy Lee]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yesterday I went out and was practicing with my new 627 and I remembered what you had said about squibing 38 special loads if the barrel was pointed in a good downward angle. I held the barrel at a good 45 degrees and shoot a couple of moons into the closest anthole I could find, and didn't have a problem at all with squibing. I use 160 gr billy bullet and 3.9 gr VVn310, maybe with lighter bullet 115-124 range I would experience a problem. Just have to experiment with some lighter bullets. I also have 100 pieces of 38 S&W brass. I'll mess around with that and see if it will work also.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I recall, Jerry was using a light bullet(115-124gr.) in the 327. A 124 gr bullet leaves a lot of volume to try to fill. Not sure what powder he was using but if it was a light charge of Bullseye, I could see it happening. The 124 gr Montana Gold jhp seems to be working pretty well in my gun with the short colt brass. I'll compare my times with the 158gr. special loads I have been shooting.

Randy

[10mmdave]

Ya know, reading this post, don't we actually push the powder back towards the

primer when we draw the revo ???

I mean if the flat gun guys are talking about actually unlocking their slides at the

draw ...................

Just thinking

[R112mercer]

Tried my .38 Short Colt load out today. Montana 125 FMJ .356 diameter head in a Starline .38 Short Colt case with 4.0 gr. of W231. Only loaded 10 rounds for development purposes. I used all Dillon reloading gear on a XL650, with a .38 Special sizing die, and the rest of the reloading gear standard 9mm, with an extra heavy crimp to prevent set-back during recoil. The rounds had a noticeably different muzzle blast, kind of a hollow thunking, like when you shoot through one of the blue plastic 55 gal. barrels you always see at matches. It sounds like there might be gas leaking around the bullet as it travels down the bore, not too sure. Accuracy was OK, I was aiming at a 3" black bull, and was able to keep my rounds close to it (close to point of aim, about a 3-4" group) at 25 yards but there was one real ugly flyer, almost 6" away from the main group. It could have been my marksmanship, but none of my sight pictures looked funny when the gun went off. I'll make 10 more and another 10 at 4.5 gr. of W231 and see what happens.

[DougCarden]

Rob, use the cases to determine pressure, not the primer sign! I had a batch that the primers looked ok, but almost had to beat the cases out of the cylinder. This was with 158gr bullets. You should be fine with the 124s, but keep that in mind, and once you get a powder figured out, experiment with varying crimp to shrink the group! Good luck, Doug

[cooper_999]

Somebody was telling me that 9x19 fit and ran in his 38 Super 627.  Is that a workable alternative?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

some of the best swiss revo shooters run 9x19 in their .357 686s and 627s (in Revolver Open Division), without changing anything - works fine! .....seen right yesterday at a very nice match in switzerland...

I shot my shortened 38. Spl brass with a 200 grs H&N / N340 load - worked also fine and accurate.

(see attached pics: one comparison of the std .38 Spl and my shortened with a 158 grs FMJ and the 200grs cooper plated and one with the Lee trim accessories)

Can anybody tell me the dimensions of the .38 short colt brass? Never heard about it before reading in this forum...

DVC!

Sascha

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Can anybody tell me the dimensions of the .38 short colt brass? Never heard about it before reading in this forum...

DVC!

Sascha

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sascha,

From the Starline Brass site

38 Short Colt is basically a shortened 38 Special. O.A.L. of .755+.005; NOT a substitute for 38 S&W

Regards,

Gary

[cooper_999]

Regards,

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thx Gary - so they are nearly like 9x19 brass? I just asked a friend from switzerland by mail, how he manages the 9x19 in his original 686.... He said yesterday something about new 9mm brass, std. .38 dies etc. I will check....

DVC!

Sascha

Edit : ok, I read the complete thread again no more questions about the SC´s....

[rwmagnus]

I went to my local shop and found one lonely box of 125gr Remington 38 Short Colt.  I invested the $14 they wanted and tried it out.  It was accurate enough at 25 yards (consistant hits on an 8" plate)  but I did not like the way they shaved lead from my 627.  I have some Starline Brass Samples on order to see how they work in my moon clips. 

If I can connect with John and try the Long Colt, I can at least compare.

Thanks to all,

Gary

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I considered the short colt but went with the long colt (Starline brss) for my 627. I know many have never had a problem but it's a long jump to the forcing cone. I'm still working with powder and bullet weights but lately have been using 3.5gr Titegroup with 158 RN FMJ. They definately load faster than a standard 38spcl. It's a soft load but need to do more chrono work. I hope to get to the range this week.. The round is about the same length as a 45ACP while the short colt is actually shorter than the 45ACP. I'll share my results with you when I'm done testing.

[R112mercer]

This is my second range report: I can't seem to get any accuracy out of .356 diameter bullets. I tried more powder (higher speed) and a firmer crimp (more pressure) and my accuracy was always in the 5" range at 25 yards, which I find unacceptable for what I need (falling steel and ICORE). I'm going to try .357 diameter bullets today. I'm using Montana's .357 125 CMJ, but they have a flat on the nose that can hamper fast reloads. If they don't work it could be the long jump to the forcing cone, but if they do, does anybody know a bullet maker that makes a .357 diameter bullet with a true round nose? I know some of the plated bullet makers do, but I'd rather have a jacketed round, if possible.

[DougCarden]

Rob, I am in the same boat. Only bullets I got to group at 25yds were the WC 147RN .357. I cant afford to shoot them after they changed hands. I am going to try some Zero 150JRN .356 and see how they do. The other choice is Berry's Doublestruck 158 rn as well. I like Berry's bullets in 158, shot a lot of them, and I will try them on my next batch. Other than that, I am not aware of 140-150 ish grain bullets sized .357...

Course if we wanted Berry's to make some 147RN sized .357 I wonder how many we would have to buy.......