Reshoots At Nationals

[RIIID]

Jason,

You were way ahead of of me in the table walk. I was helping a friend at the limited table and it was nothing like it was when I walked my last table way back when. Sponsors must be getting tired of being hounded for product.

What I want to know did Lim-10 get snubbed with 1-8 being recognized or did 1-16 get recognized?

Rich

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm not sure why you're complaining about the awards. Sure, the match booklet specified 1-16 would be recognized. But, I'm sure that was only for the main match and didn't include the Production and Revolver side shoots.

[Carlos]

I now understand (in part) THIS thread and where it comes from (arrogance in our sport).

The idea that any competitor (using two or more types of ammo) gets a re-shoot after BOTH shooting down a popper and signing the score sheet could well lead to some shooters believing that if they have to hit a popper more than once, they WILL be re-shooting that stage no matter how far they have to go to brow-beat the NROI staff into submission. Even if the explanation somehow made sense at the time, I am troubled by the "wind held up my popper" event and it is starting to sound a bit like a "dog ate my homework" excuse. Many of us have seen marginal behaviour from shooters resulting in underserved re-shoots (see thread above as well as others for examples). Perhaps we should afford greater deference to the 1st call of NROI staff & if a shooter (any shooter) insists, then let arbitration under Chapter 11 work as intended.

In general, I suggest we all try to take the high road & make sure there are NO deviations from the rules for shooters of any level. The only true justice is equal justice.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

[richardschennberg]

No RO, CRO, RM, MD should grant a reshoot merely because steel fails to fall on the first hit to or above the scoring zone. However, if you change the position or setting of a popper, then you should give a reshoot to everyone who left it standing or had to shoot it more than once. This is not a mere calibration issue, but changing a course of fire. IMO the difference between the calibration procedure vs. reshoots for changing a course of fire should be based on fairness and common sense.

Richard

Schennberg.com

[Matthew_Mink]

If memory serves correct, Armageddon himself looked at the video of the popper that was going over, then the wind blew it back upright. I didn't see it, but several others did.

FWIW, I think if that was indeed the case, and I have no doubt it was, then the competitor should be issued a reshoot because it wasn't the same for him as it was for the rest of us.

[BritinUSA]

US 11.1.5 Photos, audio and/or video recordings will not be accepted as evidence.

[Matthew_Mink]

Also on #8, the popper that didn't go down needed the bolt tightened at the bottom. It was hit high, it wobbled, went down partway, then stood back up. It went over about 25° before it stood back up. As I said before, this guy didn't get a fair shake either, so he should have gotten the reshoot, and did.

[reneet]

Jason,

You were way ahead of of me in the table walk. I was helping a friend at the limited table and it was nothing like it was when I walked my last table way back when. Sponsors must be getting tired of being hounded for product.

What I want to know did Lim-10 get snubbed with 1-8 being recognized or did 1-16 get recognized?

Rich

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not so much as the former hounder was not available so the job got dumped on the usual overworked, underpaid USPSA employee. 1 - 8 were recognized due to the percentage of people shooting L-10 VS Open. Not unreasonable in my estimation.

[driver8M3]

...because it wasn't the same for him as it was for the rest of us.

how true...apparently the rest of us shot the COF under the proper rules...while this particular shooter was granted an exception to the rules.

[Chuck Anderson]

US 11.1.5 Photos, audio and/or video recordings will not be accepted as evidence.

This rule only applies to an arbitration. None of these instances were brought to an arbitration.

The idea that any competitor (using two or more types of ammo) gets a re-shoot after BOTH shooting down a popper and signing the score sheet could well lead to some shooters believing that if they have to hit a popper more than once, they WILL be re-shooting that stage no matter how far they have to go to brow-beat the NROI staff into submission. Even if the explanation somehow made sense at the time, I am troubled by the "wind held up my popper" event and it is starting to sound a bit like a "dog ate my homework" excuse. Many of us have seen marginal behaviour from shooters resulting in underserved re-shoots (see thread above as well as others for examples). Perhaps we should afford greater deference to the 1st call of NROI staff & if a shooter (any shooter) insists, then let arbitration under Chapter 11 work as intended.

The implication that the shooters in these cases in some way brow beat or harassed the RM's into giving re-shoots is groundless and false. For someone who wasn't there to make up this kind of conspiracy theory does a disservice not only to the shooters but also the RO's. I think most of the arguing for the re-shoots were done by the other shooters on the squad, the guys that would most be negatively effected. The shooters in both cases did not harass the RM, and frankly if they did I think the Ray and Troy would most likely have shut them down fast. They plead their reasonable case and the RM's sided with them.

[driver8M3]

in both cases that i saw the shooters indeed handled themselves very well. i think what carlos meant is that other shooters see and hear about certain situations (like this one) and feel that they are also entitled to special treatment (meaning, outside the rules). and not everyone handles themselves as well as the 2 shooters at nationals did, which often leads to confrontations. and really, can you blame someone for wanting equal treatment? how can i be refused a reshoot now based on the "gust-of-wind" theory/reason/excuse? if it's OK at nationals shouldnt it be just fine at a little old club match or area match?

[Flexmoney]

Also on #8, the popper that didn't go down needed the bolt tightened at the bottom.  It was hit high, it wobbled, went down partway, then stood back up.  It went over about 25° before it stood back up.  As I said before, this guy didn't get a fair shake either, so he should have gotten the reshoot, and did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think I must have hit that same popper on Stage 8. No reshoot for me. 13 match points. 10th place, instead of 8th.

[XRe]

FWIW, I think if that was indeed the case, and I have no doubt it was, then the competitor should be issued a reshoot because it wasn't the same for him as it was for the rest of us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So - I've seen this scenario in several cases, and never saw a shooter rewarded a reshoot for it. The above would imply also that a shooter should be given a reshoot if the footing changes due to rain (or lack thereof), or for it being a different time of day, and now the sun's angle is different and may causing a glare or shining in their face, or any other weather related phenomenon.

You're also, in effect, setting the precedent that, at any match where there is appreciable wind, anyone who squarely (or maybe even marginally) hits a popper and has to tap it again gets a reshoot.

I don't buy it. It's part of the game. If you're going to reward one, you have to reward all of these scenarios - and it would get ridiculous.

This one DEFINITELY needs an official clarification - what constitutes Range Equipment Failure.

Match Directors take note, however - you would do everyone a big favor if you don't plan to have poppers set with their backs to the prevailing winds during your match....

[XRe]

Also on #8, the popper that didn't go down needed the bolt tightened at the bottom.  It was hit high, it wobbled, went down partway, then stood back up.  It went over about 25° before it stood back up.  As I said before, this guy didn't get a fair shake either, so he should have gotten the reshoot, and did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And this, of course, is a different story - if the equipment is clearly out of adjustment, you have range equipment failure....

[TDean]

FWIW, I think if that was indeed the case, and I have no doubt it was, then the competitor should be issued a reshoot because it wasn't the same for him as it was for the rest of us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope your kidd'n Matt

Our entire squad at '02 Nats seriously considered asking for a reshoot on a standards stage (50,25 and 15yd lines) because unlike any of the other squads that day, it was foggy, raining and the targets were bagged. In good weather a shooter could see his/her misses at the 15yd mark and decide if a make-up-shot was worth it. We didn't have that choice, we just couldn't see our hits.

Weather related hardships (wind, rain) are just the way it goes in our sport if we follow the rule book.

[ErikW]

Falling steel targets are the most unfair aspect of USPSA/IPSC shooting. The targets and/or the rules need a revamp. But I can't think of how to make them fair and workable, can you?

[XRe]

With all of the skilled engineering staff on this forum, one would think a workable solution (using current target profiles) could be devised... something to chew on, anyhow....

[Carlos]

Driver8M3 wrote: "i think what carlos meant is that other shooters see and hear about certain situations (like this one) and feel that they are also entitled to special treatment (meaning, outside the rules). and not everyone handles themselves as well as the 2 shooters at nationals did, which often leads to confrontations. and really, can you blame someone for wanting equal treatment? how can i be refused a reshoot now based on the "gust-of-wind" theory/reason/excuse? if it's OK at nationals shouldnt it be just fine at a little old club match or area match?"

Precisely. Hence, the link to the other thread.

[RIIID]

If memory serves me right, the bases of the poppers were adjusted because of this challenge of the popper ( they were leaning to the left also). For anyone who set steel at the match you could find a popper that took extra effort to reset it. There is so many variables that could cause popper problems. I watched this run and it was just one of those things that you can't believe how the popper could reset itself with a good hit.

Rich

[shred]

I think the answer for poppers, like it or not, is forward-falling, or US poppers without the silly anti-minor hinge extension.

We have some that never fail to fall with a good hit or blow over even in a gale and the activator one can yank small airplanes out of the sky when it falls. Unfortunately, it seems the designer/maker has gone off to do other things.

[driver8M3]

the area 7 match used a real interesting popper design...and it seemed to work very well. maybe someone from that area could comment on the # of problems they've had with that setup.

in general, i thought the steel at nationals was pretty poor. some of those targets were in pretty bad shape. on the other hand, i really like the way they ran cable from the steel to the activators (through bent metal pipes)...

[BritinUSA]

I agree with the problems on the steel. The whole calibration procedure is a complete joke. If a shooters hits the steel and it does not fall then no-one is allowed to touch the steel before the calibration shot.

The thinking here is that the steel should be in exactly the same position as when it was shot. But the steel has been hit by a lumnp of lead travelling between 800-1400 fps. IT HAS ALREADY BEEN MOVED.

It is no longer in the same position as it was when the stage was started.

All steel should be forward falling (in my opinion) and set so that a .22 would knock it over. We use a chronograph to determine if we are making major/minor so we don't need the steel to be set to make that determination.

If there are problems with wind blowing the poppers down then maybe they should redesign the popper. There is no reason for it to be the shape it is. You could have a popper shaped like a lolipop... just a tube with a round plate stuck on top. That would still provide a mechanism for activating targets and would reduce wind resistance.

Hmmm. Maybe the problem IS design and not PROCEDURE....?

[Rob Boudrie]

Some years ago, the RM exam was "identify a flawed ruled and propose a better one". I did my essay on popper calibration.

I do not like the system, since I have actually seen the following a major match (not the nationals) :

"The popper fell on your second shot, so your score stands. You'll have to excuse me now, since I need to find a wrench to get this popper readjusted for the next shooter"

What I suggested for major matches:

1. Paint poppers between each shooter

2. If a shooter has two hits on a popper in circle, and in the non-reviewable opinion of the range officer this was due to a failure of the popper to fall, a reshoot is required.

The reason for the "non-reviewable" clause was to prevent a shooter from double tapping a popper to force a reshoot on a stage which was going badly.

What this does not allow for, however, is the possibility a shooter might have a low power factor round.

The current calibration system places far too much faith in the "repeatability" of poppers, and forces the shooter sho hits one dead center and sees it standing to make a tough call. A "double hit==reshoot" rule would be fairer to shooters who encounter such a problem in a stage.

Although I don't really care for the current procedure, I do not detect any growing sentiment to change it.

[.40AET]

Forward Falling Poppers

Vince's diagram in post #7 looks like a better way to skin the cat. Traditional poppers just suck. Variances in setup and condition of the poppers leave the shooters with a lot of potential problems.

[carinab]

Falling steel targets are the most unfair aspect of USPSA/IPSC shooting. The targets and/or the rules need a revamp. But I can't think of how to make them fair and workable, can you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to say the quality of the steel at the match wasn't great. I reset a lot of poppers while working the stages that were substandard. My answer to the issue is this: paint all poppers in between shooters. A hit within the circle or in the tall head of the popper equals a reshoot if left standing. That's where they are designed to be hit. They should fall if they are hit there.

Stage 5 In the Zone: On the left side popper array, I had a hit within the circle on the right side (at 3 o'clock if the circle is a clock face) and it didn't go over with 172PF ammo. One of the ladies on the squad said instead of dropping backwards, it tilted left when hit. That makes sense as the popper wasn't sitting on level ground and was tilting right because the hinge was loose. For the calibration, it was sitting upright (where my shot left it) and a hit in the exact same spot sent it over. The miss cost me 12 match points in a very tight race. I didn't ask for a reshoot and only asked for the calibration after Kay's urging. I just figured it was my fault for not hitting the thing square in the middle.