Reshoots At Nationals

[driver8M3]

While I was at the Limited Nationals (with Production and Revolver Side Matches) I watched the Production super squad on a few stages while my squad was on a long break. I saw 2 different shooters get reshoots, though I can't figure out how or why in either case.

Stage 6-One For The Lefties

A shooter had to take multiple shots at the steel at the end of the stage. Apparently he hit it but the steel didn't fall on the initial hit(s). But at the end of the stage, the steel was down (he took extra shots at it). He was given a reshoot, though I don't know what was discussed when the range master was called in.

Stage 8-Steely Speed VII

A shooter had a (low) hit on one of the small poppers and the popper did not fall. He made up the shot later and at the end of the stage the steel was down. He was given as reshoot, though, as above, I don't know what was discussed when the range master was called in.

At the shooters meeting prior to the match, this was specifically addressed. We were told that steel can only be calibrated/challenged if you leave it standing...If you knock it down with extra shots, the stage will be scored as shot.

In both cases the range master was called in and took a calibration shot at the steel. In both cases the steel fell. As I said, I don't know what was discussed when the range master was called in, but I can't figure out how either reshoot was allowed.

[GuildSF4]

Based on the way you stated this happening there should not have been any re-shoot.

Per rulebook App C 6.a :

"Popper is shot again until it falls. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored "as shot"."

(I am sure the RM had information that I do not, and I wasn't there.)

Edited July 22, 2005 by GuildSF4

[TDean]

Do you think that would've happened in a squad of B shooters?

[XRe]

Ok, hang on a second, before you guys take off into the whole "the super squad gets special priveleges" RO/Super-Squad bashing...

Do you actually know the true reason why either reshoot was granted??? ie, did you ask the RM, the shooters, or the CRO on the stages??? Let's not make assumptions that imply corruption and favoritism w/o knowing the facts.... If you can show facts, I'll be the first to jump on that bandwagon w/ you (after all, what good are rules if they aren't applied evenly and completely across the board...).

[LPatterson]

I have meet both of the Range Masters so I think there was more involved than just the poppers not falling. Having been in simular discussions, I can tell you that Range Masters can ask questions that you have no idea how that could be related to the problem. Only to find out that since thing A happened it had an influence on thing B so that is covered by this obsure rule C.

If you believed they were given preferential treatment then you should had asked the CRO or Range Master about it.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I followed the Production Super Squad through a bunch of stages, camera in hand. I was on those stages for both. I don't remember what caused the re-shoot, but I do recall that when I heard why, I did not have a negative reaction. All I recall is the thought: "Sounds reasonable to me."

Yes, the top dogs do occasionally get away with something. But the usual result of one of them "getting away" with something is that the rest of the squad rides them mercilessly and even viciously about it for the rest of the match.

One top shooter on a different squad forced a decision his way, got scored for a hit that was really a miss, and spent the rest of the match listening to not-so-subtle and not-so-quiet comments about hits on target: "Is this a miss or a [shooters name]?"

And he'll see those same guys at the next match, and the next.....

I hope you were being tongue in cheek about the Production and Revolver matches.

[driver8M3]

I hope you were being tongue in cheek about the Production and Revolver matches.

Definitely...I assume you saw the cover of the match booklet. BTW, I shot production.

[XRe]

I hope you were being tongue in cheek about the Production and Revolver matches.

Definitely...I assume you saw the cover of the match booklet. BTW, I shot production.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I thought they could have done a little better with the match title, myself

[RIIID]

And what is worse I had to listen to the walk thru at every stage "Welcome to the 2005 LIMITED, production and revolver NATIONALS......"

member of the prodution super squad

To the shooters who finished 9-16 in Production, it's a slap in the face not to be recognized and not get an automatic invite to next years Nationals. Lets just see what they do with L-10.

Rich

17th

[Eric P.]

Do you actually know the true reason why either reshoot was granted???

I think a better question is, Is there any reason ANY shooter should be given a Re-Shoot in the examples given?? I also saw these two stages. And I was under the impression that if you dropped the steel (even with multiple shots) you bought it. If these shooters felt there was a problem with the steel then they should have left it standing, and called for a calibration.

What is a good reason for getting a re-shoot in these situations? A big gust of wind held up the popper?? Does that fly?

I followed the Production Super Squad through a bunch of stages, camera in hand. I was on those stages for both. I don't remember what caused the re-shoot, but I do recall that when I heard why, I did not have a negative reaction. All I recall is the thought: "Sounds reasonable to me."

Patrick, what were the reasons you heard the re-shoots were issued?

Yes, the top dogs do occasionally get away with something. But the usual result of one of them "getting away" with something is that the rest of the squad rides them mercilessly and even viciously about it for the rest of the match.

Sign me up!! Sounds good to me!! I know our squad "ribbed" & "rode" each other for 18 stages and the chrono. So I think it would be a good trade to "get away" with somethings if the consequence is a little "ribbing"!!

[Patrick Sweeney]

I don't remember the reasons for the re-shoots for Produciton, just that they seemed OK to me at the time.

And you would NOT want to be getting the grief I heard and heard about. If you were in a bar and heard someone being ridden that hard, you'd clear the area for the ensuing fight. There was nothing good-natured about it.

[XRe]

Do you actually know the true reason why either reshoot was granted???

I think a better question is, Is there any reason ANY shooter should be given a Re-Shoot in the examples given??

Already asked and answered, and is a moot point. If all there was to the situations described was as told, then, no, no reason for a reshoot. The point is - unless you know the reasoning as to why the reshoot was granted, you don't even know if there's something to beef about in the FIRST place. So far, Patrick's the only one who claims to have heard the reasons - and he doesn't recall them, apparently, but thought they were reasonable at the time.

  I also saw these two stages.  And I was under the impression that if you dropped the steel (even with multiple shots) you bought it.  If these shooters felt there was a problem with the steel then they should have left it standing, and called for a calibration. 

Correct.

What is a good reason for getting a re-shoot in these situations?  A big gust of wind held up the popper??  Does that fly?

I certainly don't know of one. My understanding is that wind is considered "rub of the green" (ie, them's the breaks). If the popper drops when calibrated on your request, you still eat the mike. If you drop the popper it can't be calibrated. Either way, you lose if you're in strong wind coming from behind the popper, unless it turns out to need calibrating (or you get the same wind during calibration).

If that isn't the case, someone let me know. Any popper I leave standing that calibrates out is going to be held up by wind from here on out!!!

Sign me up!!  Sounds good to me!!  I know our squad "ribbed" & "rode" each other for 18 stages and the chrono.  So I think it would be a good trade to "get away" with somethings if the consequence is a little "ribbing"!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm a firm believer in "range karma"... if you try to force a "break", other things will "break" the opposite way later on.

[Wakal]

Had a guy get a reshoot on my squad (at the Open Nationals) yesterday. After he accepted the alpha/mike/noshoot (on a shot that drifted into the noshoot, just inside (by 1/16") the perf), signed his score sheet. and six more shooters...shot the stage...he complained that the no-shoot had a "non-standard perf" and the RM bought it.

Yeah, our squad ribbed him about it unmercifully...but he got his reshoot (and although was three seconds slower, he didn't have the mike/no-shoot...or the OTHER two mikes...).

Positively a Darst-ardly thing to pull, but it worked for him. I just couldn't do something like that with a straight face, but hell, whatever floats your boat.

Alex

[driver8M3]

...he complained that the no-shoot had a "non-standard perf" and the RM bought it.

what was non-standard about the perf??? and if it was non-standard, should everyone that hit it also get a re-shoot?

[Wakal]

The young man pointed out that the rules called for a .5cm non-scoring border, and that the offending (Target Barn Official) target didn't not have...quite...a perf .5cm in from the top edge.

Calling the RM in after the score sheet had been signed (and others shot the stage), no $100 flopped on the table as a arb fee, no reshoots for anyone else...

Just not my kind of game.

I like picking on the rules before the match

Alex

[EricW]

Alex,

Do tell about the dark house stage. Did your evil plans come to fruition?

[ErikW]

That's it, I'm coming up with a new overlay with a .5 cm measurement for non-scoring borders. Might as well add a fault line height gauge to it...

[Chuck Anderson]

It's funny that you mention the wind holding the popper up. That was the reason that one of the re-shoots was given. But here's the rest of the situation. The shooter is also shooting L10 nats. His Production load was a 200 gr. 40 at about 670 fps. He was having some accuracy problems with the load so he was setting his mags so that every time he had a long shot, he was using his 40 major ammo for the L10's. This was really obvious by sound, pff, pff, bam, bam. He was using the heavy stuff when he hit the popper. Three times in the calibration circle before it dropped. There was a shooter who watched the popper start to fall and then rock back forward with the wind (FWIW). Is it really fair in a match to tell the shooter, thems the breaks, when there is clearly a problem with the calibration? The issue with the US Popper comes from the crappy design that PASA uses. The ones with the bolts on the bottom loosen up. When you shoot a popper it moves back a bit then the second shot knocks it over. There's no way that you will win the calibration if this is the problem. It's already almost going to go over.

And so you know, I didn't have any problem knocking any of the steel over with my Rem UMC 115 gr FMJ factory ammo.

We also had a reshoot for another shooter that started without hearing protection. The shooter continued with the short stage, not knowing that he needed to tell the RO he didn't have ears. Is there some kind of advantage to not letting him reshoot? Does that make it more fair? Is there anyone who thinks that he started the day without ears in an effort to gain some competetive advantage? Of course not.

[driver8M3]

Is it really fair in a match to tell the shooter, thems the breaks...

really, it's the only fair thing to do.

lawman, thanks for providing the missing info...

[Wakal]

Hmmm...by that reasoning, I should have got a reshoot since I hit a full-sized popper this very morning (at the Open Nationals), a freshly painted popper even...hit it an inch below the circle, a half inch to the right of the center line. Full hit at 165 power factor, mind, just a bit right of dead center an inch below the circle. Shot the next popper, and finished on the static paper. Saw the popper still up as I dropped the magazine, and strong-handed a center-circle shot to drop the popper.

The RO watched this, and lightened the popper (it was leaning WAY forward) and recalibrated it.

Reshoot?

Nope. I shot the steel down. No reshoot allowed...under the rules. However, rules (it seems) are flexible things...depending on which way the wind blows

And speaking of flexible rules, I discovered (from talking to Mr. Amidon before the match started) that USPSA does not recognize IPSC rules clarifications, published on the ISPC website or in writing, UNLESS they are recognized and ratified by the USPSA Board of Directors. Therefore, the August 04 ISPC rules clarification (that declared flashlights as sighting devices) is NOT in effect at this time. I thought it was kind of funny that we get automatically saddled with IPSC's strange "Production gun database" via automatic web site updates, but we don't "get" rules clarifications until the BOD votes on 'em. But what the hell, I don't get paid to think. I jus' pays mah money and ah shoots some matches

Although, for the record, I shot the entire match with my flashlight attached (but not activated)

Alex

[Vlad]

Although, for the record, I shot the entire match with my flashlight attached (but not activated) 

I think that deserves extra style points.

[Nik Habicht]

I thought it was kind of funny that we get automatically saddled with IPSC's strange "Production gun database" via automatic web site updates, but we don't "get" rules clarifications until the BOD votes on 'em.

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alex,

actually, after IPSC removed a couple of guns from their list here, the Board realized that they needed to put a fix in place. To the best of my knowledge, the USPSA BOD decides on modifying the Production Gun List as well as on rule interpretations.......

[sfinney]

Sounds lke maybe instead of saying the Popper wasn't calibrated correctly, he was trying to call the Popper not falling a "range equipment failure"??? due to the wind and poor design mentioned? Then by that convoluted logic maybe that would be a reshoot....

Technically, it shouldn't matter how many times he hit the popper, or with how a major/minor bullet, if it went down at some point during the stage, no reshoot.

If he had shot it once in the calibration zone, left it standing, finished the stage, he could then ask for a calibration....

But if the Popper was really "broken" or not working correctly depending on wind direction, maybe "range equipment failure" would be valid, I guess?

He was using the heavy stuff when he hit the popper.  Three times in the calibration circle before it dropped.  There was a shooter who watched the popper start to fall and then rock back forward with the wind (FWIW).  Is it really fair in a match to tell the shooter, thems the breaks, when there is clearly a problem with the calibration?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Larry White]

I think Alex is on track with his statment about depending which way the wind blows. I also think that sometimes it depends on who is standing in that wind.-----Larry

[JLJ]

Rich, I wounder if the L10 prize table looked anything like ours????

Jason Jones