9mm Major (or Minor) Problems Info Wanted

[Guy Neill]

In my column in Front Sight, I asked for feedback on people's experiences with 9mm Major. It was subsequently suggested that I post here and ask the same question. A good suggestion I am following.

I read through the topic on 9mm Major, and noted that the variations reported, as with the SD's did not seem larger than commonly seen in various loads. That is good, for the theoretical calculations suggested much more potential for problems that should show up in larger velocity variations.

I am continuing to research this and would appreciate any experiecnes any of you may have with, especially, 9mm Major, but anything with the 9mm case would be of interest.

As I pointed out in the column, I found over 9 grains difference between the lightest weight and heaviest wight 9mm Luger cases I recently weighed. This should significantly affect the internal volume and cause different pressures with the same load, given a mixture of cases.

I have had at least one comment concerning 9mm Major cracking slides, but I have not yet been able to follow up on it. Of course, cracked slides can result from other factors as well, so much more information is needed before any conclusions can be made.

I appreciate your help and comments.

Guy

[MoNsTeR]

Not major but maybe interesting...

mixed brass (mostly Speer Lawman)

WSP primers

3.4gr N310

147gr Berry's RN

1.165" OAL

Beretta 92FS Brigadier

15 round sample

mean: 921.8fps

SD: 6.44fps

Best SD I've ever gotten.

[Alan Meek]

Guy,

I will work on getting together as much info as I can from my 9 Major development. I do have a sampling of the cases as I worked up loads.

Alan

[DrKyle1]

What is the time line for the info? I am about to load up 500 rounds of 9mm using 5 diff bullets and titegroup looking to hit 128-130 pf but it won't be until next week that I have data compiled.

[fishnfst]

Posted this awhile ago... Still shooting the same recipe but with zero 124fmj's...

Specs are glock 22 length barrel with kkm comp.

Hodgdon HS-7

federal small rifle

124grain winchester fmj's

OAL 1.138

will be switching to either zero's or mg's after these are gone...

conditions sunny 70 degress farenheit about as close to sea level as you can get....

Started at 7.5 grains right around 1150fps

and worked my way up in .2 grain increments

8.9 grains was giving me a 1348 average for twenty rounds with a sd of only 8fps.

This is the load that I came up with at the end of the day. I will probaly stick with this or back off .1 grain.

Oehler 35p with the screens setup 20 ft from the muzzle...

As too cracking slides I couldn't imagine it being any worse than a factory uncompensated 9mm. Mine won't even run with a stock glock 17lb spring in it... A lightened slide that cracks would have cracked be it 9major, or any variation of .38spr.....

Here is another load as well...

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ype=post&id=758

The variation in case weights is a moot point... You should only shoot what you've tested in your given pistol. You wouldn't change bullets or powder without backing off your charge and rechronographing would you? In my rifles the difference between remington and winchester brass is huge... Any load that would be border line pressure wise in remington brass would pop a primer in win brass....

I only load a single headstamp at a time.. When the brass runs out I will redevelop another load...

Would you shoot someones elses 9major ammo in your gun? I surely would not.. Even with similarly setup guns the ammo will chrono differently depending mostly on barrel id. The difference in compensator and hybrid holes makes an even bigger difference... For example a four port compensated gun versus a three port compensator and 4 hybrid holes would chrono way different... Some of the Hybrid guns take up to 1.2 grains or more powder to make the same pf as in my compensator only type gun....

[Guy Neill]

No specific timeline. I'm trying to refine the theoretical variations of the 9mm Major to the reality people are seeing in their guns.

The next colum tries to address these differences - assuming I can get it to a form the editor likes.

Thanks to all for any data/information you have.

Guy

[eric nielsen]

I weighed out a bunch of cases - I have 2 brands which I shoot separately. The Speer nickel cases [marked +P and without the +P] vary less than half a grain in weight. The other cases are Winchester nickel, they vary at the most .4 grain with the vast majority all the same weight to the tenth.

[Edit] The two brands result in different OALs for the same seating die setting. I have to back out from the Speer setting to get out to 1.150 with the Winchester.

I've had no problems with splits or bulges, if anything they hold up better with repeated loading than Speer nickel 40cal cases which split pretty often. A small number of my 9Major cases will get loose in the primer pocket after about 5 loadings - they go straight into the trash.

I only shoot once-fired for matches & reload my practice ammo. I wouldn't want to pick up other ppl's brass at a match & agree with everyone that you should NOT buy mixed brass to load 9major. Pay a half-cent more per case and get one brand. I get single-digit SDs with CCI primers and groups way under one inch. Zero R162 bullet and 8.3gr of HS6, 1.150" OAL.

Edited July 17, 2005 by eric nielsen

[alma]

Guy,

When I first developed my Major 9 load I was using Winchester SP primers because I was worried about ignition in my striker-fired Glock. The load did not look like it had that much flow back into the striker channel but it flattened the primers really well. After about 5000 rounds I started getting light strikes. We traced the problem back to primer –shaped fractures around the firing pin hole. Part of the breach face seemed to be rubbing on the striker after it cracked causing the light strikes.

It also seemed to wear the striker out faster. The Glock armorer was surprised that the parts were still igniting primers (I used the same internal parts in my production gun but I went to Federal SP for ignition purposes.) My open slide had been lightened and it developed some hairline fractures around the cuts. These kind of fractures seem to be more likely on the Glock because once you get passed the super hard Tennifer(SP?) the inside is quite soft.

Round 2- I have a brand new slide and all new internals to play with. I am using rifle primers exclusively and I do not plan on making any lightening cuts in the slide. I will be shooting this gun the rest of the summer so I will let you know what I find out.

[dansy]

First I'm a new shooter and also new to OPEN but by trade I'm an airplane mechanic...so I'm not afraid to try thing's and handle tools and files....

When I purchased my Open 9Maj STI Gun even my dealer recommended that I should be getting a 38 Super...because I would have a lot of problems with the 9mm, I have to admit that I almost did get a 38S, but I didn't want to waist money on brass...and had no intention to become a brass rat at matches...and taugh I can always get bore to 38 SC if I had too many problems.

I got a Stinger 3.9" barrel, apparently harder then most 9mm to make major with, but I have had no problem making it, with HS-6, N350, and now using 3N37 powder, using CCI SPM primers, mix cases once fired and Hornady 125gr HAP. All my loads are about 171PF....

For the gun itself, I did have some problem at the begining...very tigh slide (not bad thing) took a fair among of bullets through, also like all Open gun with light spring....I keep having my thumb rubbing against the slide jamming my gun....got that fix with a set of shield Ambi, the stock ejector was rather long and was getting bend easily by aggressive magazines insertion during matches....so I installed a Limcat ejector which was file down a little now no ejection problems....but the extractor sometimes was not grabbing the empty casing cleanly (it required to be bend at after every use) so it was my next target and the Aftec fix that problem...

The gun was sent to gunsmith for trigger work and a slide racker...now my gun is 100% running, the odd malfunction are extremely rare..also have a Thumb rest, long firing pin...not really because of problems but rather not to have any...and a Jim S. texture painted grip....

So I basically have a custom Stinger.....but the experience taught me a lot about the pistols so I'm happy with it, next one will be a custom....just because it cost more to buy as factory and do all this work then a trick custom....

[Harmon]

due to the differecnes in case specs, different brands will give different OALs and lower/higher velocities..

i noticed this especially with heavy bullets and fast powder

im sure the problem is there with mixed brass in the major 9...

i believe this is why JL hardy shoots only once fired federal brass.

[MarkS_A18138]

I want to know what the load is for white box 124grn 9mm. It works perfect in my daughters open 9!!!!

[Harmon]

winchester white box 9mm 124 FMJs?? and you want to load them?

WSF powder and data out of the winchester books will get you the duplicate of that load.

Good luck.

[MTrout40]

I can't say I've ever weighed cases or measured volume, but here is some data that may be usefull to you.

My load: 124gr RN Montana Gold

1.195 OAL

7.2 grains of IMR 7625 WSP Primer

I loaded 100 rounds and picked out 10 WIN and 10 non-WIN to chrono.

With Winchester brass, a 10 shot spread was: 1386, 1390, 1385, 1385, 1389, 1391, 1382, 1388, 1387, 1390.

With the same load with mixed NON-Winchester brass: 1355, 1362, 1358, 1357, 1365, 1359, 1352, 1357, 1361, 1358. These were mostly RP and Speer with a few military pieces.

As a side note, this load is FAR more consistant than anything I've ever shot in super. It may be the load or the new barrel?

Another interesting point.... with 7.6 of 7625 and the above specs I averaged a 180 PF with the pistol primers and absolutely no pressure signs. This is out of a 5" coned comp gun with no barrel ports.

I also marked one peice of brass so I could see how far I could go with loading it. So far I've loaded it 12 times to the above specs and she's still holding together!

As far as the slide cracking issue....we've shot close to 10,000 rounds of the 173 PF load above (along with a few thousand 180 PF loads) with no problems. My slide is about as milled out as it can get, weighing in at 9.1 oz. If any slide should crack it would be mine.

Hope that helps you out!

MT

[EricW]

Guy,

My 115gr 9mm loads make 140+PF out of my G19 with 5.0 gr of Titegroup. Guess I'll have to chrono a 5" gun here soon, I'll bet they come close to major in a 5" gun.

10 to 15K and no problems whatsoever.

9mm major is far less scary to me than 40 major. I can't seat a bullet on a double charge of 9mm minor. 9mm also is generally surrounded by more steel than 40, and has less projected surface area than 40. I think those little engineering points get lost when people get scared by 9mm major.

I'll bet a beer that, on average as adjusted for the population of guns, more 40 majors are blowing up than 9mm majors.

[Alan Meek]

Okay,

I have a chart of the variation of brass and variation of velocity in %.

If I can get it uploaded I will.

I weighed ever case, bullet, powder charge. Measured the case length, crimp and OAL.

My conclusions come down to there are to many variables that will affect the velocity. The chart that I have shows that the case weight differences does not correalate directly to velocity differences.

Just my observations for what it is worth.

Alan

[Guy Neill]

I greatly appreciate everyone's input and comments.

EricW - Yes, the 40, operating at the same pressure as the 9mm, will give higher hoop stress. The early 40 cases had too much of a cylindrical inside bottom and most, if not all have changed the cases so that there is more material (radius) in the transition from the web to the sidewall.

Again - thanks to all.

I don't mean this as an end - if anyone has more information, let's hear it.

Guy

[.40AET]

I pulled 7 cases from my brass bucket. All have been fired out of my gun, so they have all been shot twice. I weighed each case. For a reference, a spent primer weighs 3.2-3.5g. I'm sure that the heavier cases would go faster at the chronograph.......how much????? I'll reload them and chrono after my gun comes back from getting chromed.

Speer nickel=56.3

Speer brass=56.3

Federal (FC)=54.9

CBC=58.6

R-P=58.2

Win=57.7

PMC=57.8

[Carlos]

Guy;

I shoot 9 major out of an Open Glock built by John Nagel using a 5.5" KKM supported SS barrel featuring 3 exhaust ports measuring .205" each exiting through a top-rib like a Schuemann barrel. Some of my handloads include:

8.8 grns of Vihta Vouri 3N38 powder under a 124 grn Montana Golf CMJ with Federal Small Pistol primer. Avg. out of my gun for this load is approx 1348 FPS. It is a compressed load at 1.160".

Another load using that length, bullet, and primer is: 7.4 grns of N-350 powder: Avg. 1341 FPS.

For both of these loads, I used several-times fired Hirtenberger L7 A1 cases with NO problems whatsoever.

I weighed a once-fired case (with spent primer) that is head-stamped:

"HP L7 A1 91" Weight - 59.1 grns.

-- this spent case is, of course, originally from the notorious Hirtenberger L7 factory NATO surplus load that propels a 124 grn FMJ to Major out of most non-ported guns (and some ported ones too). It is military surplus and the 2400 rounds I have came in lead/wire sealed ammo cans of 1200 rounds.

I chronoed this factory loaded 9 Major ammo through a properly calibrated PACT Mk. IV chrono bought from Brian Enos;

-out of a stock Glock 17 with stock barrel: Avg. 1343 FPS

-out of a 9 Major STI useing a Schuemann non-AET barrel: Avg. 1354 FPS.

-out of an Colt built 16" AR-15 rifle with chrome lined bore, this load avgd. 1421 FPS.

-despite all the warnings, a friend has fired many thousands of rounds of L7A1 through his STI/Schuemann barreled gun with NO problems. Though I have only fired a few rounds through my Glock 17 & Steyr M9, a competition team mate reports firing all 1000 rounds of L7 he bought through his Glock 17 with no ill effect. None of the guns used experienced cracked slides. I do not fire this factory ammo from the Open glock simply because the primers are very hard military primers and my Glock's light trigger does not ignite these primers reliably.

What slides do crack? I believe that only Stock, factory brand Glock brand slides crack with continuous long term use of certain hand loads of Major 9. My Open 9 Major glock uses a Caspian built Glock slide. The gunsmith who built my Open Glock managed to crack several stock Glock slides before resorting to Caspian. So far, NO caspian slides have cracked as far as I know. I have never seen or heard of a 9 major slide from a 1911 crack.

In addition to the L7 cases, I have used once-fired 9x19mm cases from all of the leading US manufacturers with zero problems thus far.

After several loadings of 9 Major, I retire my cases for use with Matt Burkett's Minor 9mm load which produces +p+ pressure (if the numbers from Quickload are to be believed). This load consists of 3.2 grns of N310 powder under a Jacketed or Plated 147 grn bullet loaded out to 1.145 to 1.155" OAL; a Lee Undersize die is used to prevent the possibility of set-back. This load was used by Phil Strader to take second place at the IDPA Winter nationals year before last with a Glock 17; I know because I loaded the ammo he used for that match (L7 A1 cases & Zero 147 JHP). There are 4 other avid Minor shooters in the D.C. area regularly using this same Minor load with NO reported brass problems.

I believe that 9x19mm brass is actually much stronger than it is given credit for. In addition to the obviously heavy L7 cases, isn't there a factory 9x19mm load used by Rob Leatham in practice that generates Major velocity?

I am looking forward to your report in FrontSight. Regards,

D.C. Johnson

www.shootersparadise.com

[vincent]

In addition to the obviously heavy L7 cases, isn't there a factory 9x19mm load used by Rob Leatham in practice that generates Major velocity?

The Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ factory load makes Major in some guns.

[GTOSHootr]

Guy,

I just read the article in Front Sight. I look forward to reading the articles by you and Bob L the most. They are well written. I was just curious what the details were on the reports of cracked slides you mentioned. Having just built a 9 major gun, I've read ever post on every forum (twice or more) and haven't found anyone who has cracked a slide. It would be most useful to us to know what those loads were or how those guns were set up.

MTrout,

Your slide is milled to 9oz. Got pics? I'll trade for some pics of some sick Mopars.

Steve

[shred]

Slides crack occasionally. More so if they've been cut upon. I know of two cracked slides at the World Shoot, one on a guy's gun from my squad, and another on one of the US competitors's guns.

Most of the time the slides crack vertically by the breechface on the opposite side from the ejection port.

[Flexmoney]

Trout,

Your slide is milled to 9oz. Got pics? I'll trade for some pics of some sick Mopars.

Steve

You can see pics from Matt's smith here: http://www.gansguns.com/Photos.html

[GTOSHootr]

Trout,

Your slide is milled to 9oz. Got pics? I'll trade for some pics of some sick Mopars.

Steve

You can see pics from Matt's smith here: http://www.gansguns.com/Photos.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, I've checked out that page a few times. I like it a lot.

[GTOSHootr]

Slides crack occasionally.  More so if they've been cut upon.  I know of two cracked slides at the World Shoot, one on a guy's gun from my squad, and another on one of the US competitors's guns.

Most of the time the slides crack vertically by the breechface on the opposite side from the ejection port.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Shred,

I've seen some at my gunsmith's shop. The one I remember most was the result of a really, really hot pin load in a Para (I think). I realize it just happens sometimes in any caliber for different reasons (hot load, weak slide). I was just curious if any were linked to 9 major's intrinsic pressure issues as a cause. That seems to be the concern, if 9 major is causing substantially more punishment to the gun than alternatives. I'm in the early stages of load development myself. I'd like to know what combinations proved catastrophic, and stay away from them.

[shred]

IME slides crack after long use, not after one or two shots, so it's hard to assign blame to any one load.