Limited guns.

[HawkMoney]

Thinking about shooting limited next year and I really like the tanfo platform. What do you guys do to your limited guns. Do people use stock 2's or 3's in 40 and start with the hammer cocked? Or are the single

action triggers that better on the limited guns. Thumb rests? Some pictures would

be cool.

[Rnlinebacker]

Definitely single action is the better choice

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[Tampa-XD45]

I use a Witness Elite Limited single action with the safety on.  I bought it in 9mm and later bought a 40 cal conversion kit, and the 22 conversion kit.  I can shoot major or minor power factor just by changing slides & mags.  Still the best limited gun for the money.

Witness Limited link

 

And BTW, you don't have to do anything to these guns ...they are good to go right out of the box.

[HesedTech]

On 8/4/2017 at 1:51 PM, HawkMoney said:

Do people use stock 2's or 3's in 40 and start with the hammer cocked?

 

I'm late to the party on this but in USPA rule book the holster position of the hammer and safety is based on the type of action the gun has. Basically, DA is hammer forward and SA is hammer back safety on. 

 

If I want to shoot limited with my Stock 2 all I have to do is add more ammo to the magazine and increase load for higher PF for scoring. I am considering the 40 SW conversion, but at $750 from the factory, it's a bit steep.

 

Check the rules for further info and I can't write for the other shooting disciplines.

[Sc0]

Just jumped into the Tanfo world, originally planned to use a .40 Stock3 and grab a 9mm conversion kit for production.  Like you, was shocked on the conversion upper cost from EAA and had to adjust my plan with a complete separate pistol.

 

.40 Stock3 setup with SAO with PatriotDefense goodies: 14lb hammer spring, optimized trigger, firing pin, and sear springs, BOLO, Henning XL firing pin, removed firing pin block, Titan hammer, Dawson fiber optic front sight, Xtreme trigger and conefit guide rod, EGD grips and mag well.  Henning 140mm mags from BSPS.  

 

No thumb rest now, but might drill/tap the frame later on to match the Limited guns.  Someone did offer a thumb rest that replaced the slide stop, no permanent modifications and deleted the slide stop which isn't a bad deal for Limited.  

 

https://www.speedshooter.com/product_detail.cfm?id=NF17-4 TF&n=Shooting-Sport-Tanfoglio-CZ-Slide-Lock-Thumb-Rest

Edited September 9, 2017 by Sc0

[LeviSS]

22 hours ago, HesedTech said:

 

I'm late to the party on this but in USPA rule book the holster position of the hammer and safety is based on the type of action the gun has. Basically, DA is hammer forward and SA is hammer back safety on. 

 

If I want to shoot limited with my Stock 2 all I have to do is add more ammo to the magazine and increase load for higher PF for scoring. I am considering the 40 SW conversion, but at $750 from the factory, it's a bit steep.

 

Check the rules for further info and I can't write for the other shooting disciplines.

No, it is based on the division you shoot.  If you shoot Limited with a DA/SA gun, you have the option of hammer down or cocked with safety on.  If you shoot Production with a DA/SA, it has to be hammer down.

 

If you have a 9mm Stock 2, you can't just add more powder and declare major.  In Limited you have to shoot 40 to declare major.

[HesedTech]

On 9/10/2017 at 11:20 AM, LeviSS said:

No, it is based on the division you shoot.  If you shoot Limited with a DA/SA gun, you have the option of hammer down or cocked with safety on.  If you shoot Production with a DA/SA, it has to be hammer down.

 

If you have a 9mm Stock 2, you can't just add more powder and declare major.  In Limited you have to shoot 40 to declare major.

 

Ok here's the USPSA chapter 8 rule book for "hand gun ready". If I missed something please point to the chapter for me, yes I've been wrong mor than once. Thank you in advance. 

 

(Basically I can't find where the selective action clause is approved for limited, I know it is not allowed for Production from being corrected by an RO at one of my first matches)

 

Here's what I've found:

 

2. 8.1.2  Self-loading Pistols:

   1. 8.1.2.1  “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

   2. 8.1.2.2  “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de- cocked.

   3. 8.1.2.3  “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

   4. 8.1.2.4  With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter. This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other location stated in the WSB (e.g.: table start, in a drawer, etc). in order to be in compliance with 10.5.11

   5. 8.1.2.5  When applicable, the grip safety may be disabled provided that the primary safety as described in 8.1.2.4 is operable. Production division handguns are explicitly excluded from this rule. 

Appndix D on divisions

APPENDIX D2 — Limited Division

	Minimum power factor for Major	165
	Minimum power factor for Minor	125
	Minimum bullet weight	No
	Minimum cartridge dimensions	9x19 mm (0.354” x 0.748”)
	Minimum bullet caliber for Major	.40 cal. / 10mm (0.40”)
	Minimum trigger pull	No
	Maximum handgun size	No
	Maximum magazine length	5.561” (141.25mm) or 6.742” (171.25mm) in single stack guns.
	Maximum ammunition capacity	No
	Maximum distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from inner side of belt	Handgun and Mags - 2”
	Rule 5.2.3.1 applies	Yes
	Restriction on position of holster and other equipment	No
	Optical/electronic sights permitted	No
	Installed flashlights permitted	No
	Compensators permitted	No
	Barrel ports permitted	No
	Slide ports permitted	Yes
	Maximum weight	No
	Handgun specifically approved for Division	N/A
	Holster restrictions	No

 

BTW correct on the 40  major in limited, I'm thinking of those in open that load 9 to major PF, my error.

Edited September 14, 2017 by HesedTech

[Tanfastic]

Limited does not specify "Special Conditions" for handgun ready, so it defaults to the clause you quoted in 2.8.1.2.  Production DOES specify "Special Condition" in Appendix D as follows:

 

Special conditions: — Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal,

[HesedTech]

Tanfastic 

 

Thank you for the clarification since I posted the rule I’ve been asking our local ROs and after looking up the specific sections they all seem to come to the same conclusion, we don’t know why we allow hammer cocked and safety on with limited guns. They all agree that “selective” is not referring to the safety on a DA/SA pistol like CZ/Tanfoglio, so that clause does not apply. 

 

It seems as though it’s just something done and has been passed down over the years, a kind of gray” area. Personally I believe a strick ruling would be any gun with a DA/SA action must start hammer down/forward unless specifically allowed to be in SA with safety on. 

 

But I’ll certainly go with it, hammer back safety on, when I possibly shoot Limited.  Right  now I can hardly tell a difference when drawing to DA and my first shot is as accurate as subsequent SA ones. Been practicing that first shot a lot. 

 

Thanks again!

Edited September 25, 2017 by HesedTech

[MemphisMechanic]

The only reason you CANNOT cock & safe to start in Production is because the rules prohibit single-action firearms. You must fire a DA first shot.

 

Without that prohibition, Limited and Open Guys will always opt to start hammer back. As you noted, they permit ANY start condition, so shooter’s will opt for the one with the best trigger pull. (Assuming they aren’t shooting a 2011, in which case that is their only option to begin with.)

 

They begin on safe in order to comply with the relevant section of the rule book. (Which mandates a safety be used if the gun is in SA)

Edited September 27, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[MikeBurgess]

48 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

in Production is because the rules prohibit single-action firearms. You must fire a DA first shot.

Not in USPSA

you must start with the hammer fully down (or wherever the decocker puts it) you are under no obligation to fire it DA,  you can if you choose manually cock the hammer prior to shooting.

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

16 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

Not in USPSA

you must start with the hammer fully down (or wherever the decocker puts it) you are under no obligation to fire it DA,  you can if you choose manually cock the hammer prior to shooting.

 

 

 

Technically you can run your holster at 6 o’clock on your belt in Production, but we also don’t see that terribly often for some reason.

 

I was speaking on what is common practice.  

Edited September 28, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[MikeBurgess]

3 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

Technically you can run your holster at 6 o’clock on your belt in Production, but we also don’t see that terribly often for some reason.

 

I was speaking on what is common practice.  

but you said MUST, and that could give someone the idea that any other action was prohibited, and its not. I have see several shooters thumb cock their da guns when they had to engage a very distant target on the draw, such as on some of the standards classifier stages.

[HesedTech]

MM

 

What’s interesting is the interpretation of the rule book in limited is just that, an interpretation. I’ve only been at this for a short while but it seems there’s a number of interpretations which are based on what is specifically stated in one class and not in another. Basically, tradition and not the letter has guided this particular one. 

 

USPSA Production rule say all guns with external hammers must be “decocked “ prior to start. While I didn’t check the approved production list, I have to assume all the approved guns that have external hammers are DA/SA. It would be really silly to have a SA only pistol in production. 

 

The real question I would ask myself is, why would I draw my Tanfo and then cock the hammer for SA prior to the first shot? It took a bunch of practice, but my DA shot is as accurate as the SA ones now, but that also might not be saying much about my follow up SAs either. 

 

BTW, MM your series on polishing a Tanfo made my gun perform perfectly. Thank you!

Edited October 7, 2017 by HesedTech
Rule for production guns.

[Kurusty]

Limited does not specify "Special Conditions" for handgun ready, so it defaults to the clause you quoted in 2.8.1.2.  Production DOES specify "Special Condition" in Appendix D as follows:
 
Special conditions: — Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal,

I don't believe that it needs to be under "special conditions" because it's already listed. Otherwise it should have a special condition under limited and limited 10 stating that you can have it cocked and the safety engaged.

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[johnbu]

13 hours ago, HesedTech said:

The real question I would ask myself is, why would I draw my Tanfo and then cock the hammer for SA prior to the first shot? It took a bunch of practice, but my DA shot is as accurate as the SA ones now, but that also might not be saying much about my follow up SAs either. 

 

 

Thinking about it, in an off the wall fashion....

 

You might need to do a strong hand only string, like for a classifier. In that case, doing a "cowboy draw hammer cock" might be beneficial. Might. But, i sure wouldn't try it!

 

My DA first shot is close enough, free style,  strong or weak hand only.  they always get a letter...be it A or M ! Lol.