Zen

[John Heiter]

Am I the only one on this board who doesn't really get the whole "Zen" thing. I'll probably offend lots of people and get trashed for posting this but I have to say it. I feel that taking the time for some introspection is a good thing. Learning from others or trying to pass on your own wisdom, that's cool too...but I'm starting to wonder if "Zen" just means the statement of something that is fairly obvious in a round-about way that makes the speaker feel clever.

[cpty1]

I see you've got 270 posts so you're not new to this board. Therefore, you already know you're not gonna get trashed for your comments. With that said, I experimented with mental and visualization philosophies and techniques and applied them to shooting years ago. The weighted string exercise (can't remember what it's formally called, but there was a variation of it in the latest issue of Men's Health magazine) convinced me that mental imagery does affect the body's physical response. The mind in it's natural state provides the environment needed to best plant seeds of mental imagery and also allows the body to perform any physical activity at it's highest level, with or without the use of mental imagery. I used some Zen exercises to help me get my mind into it's natural state on demand. Zen to me was what I did to get my mind where it needed to be so I could perform at my highest level, regardless of what that level may have been at the time. There is "Zen" discussion on this board that goes way beyond my level of understanding, to the point of sounding verbose as well. By the same token, if someone submitted a post about some new equation that further proved the theory of relativity, I wouldn't know what they were talking about either. Sometimes I'll take bits and pieces of what I understand and can apply and see if that opens any doors for me. If so, I've learned something. If not, so be it. Today's confusion is sometimes tomorrow's understanding. If you're curious at all, do the weighted string exercise, and go from there.

[TriggerT]

Zen is good for nothing, or was it everything.

Seriously though, zen helped me with my overall focus. Also, I find that when I am stressed out I can take a mental break using Zen. It can help you to learn to let go, and let your body do what it is capable of doing, while your mind watches.

[George]

Zen is in the mind of the beholder, or not ;-)

[BigDave]

I think if you don't "get it", that's okay. There are people who have been on the path for a long time who might tell you that they don't "get it" either, not yet anyway. But, I think it would be wise to stop short of generally characterizing Zen (or anything else one doesn't "get", for that matter) as a roundabout reitteration of anything for any purpose, self-important or otherwise.

However, if you are curious about Zen I would recommend the book Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind by S. Suzuki.

[Barlin]

John,

If you suspect a few member's take on the Zen thing is alot like the fable of "The Kings New Clothes'' you're probably right. But for many it is serious journey of self-discovery.

So what has the Zen state got to do with competitive shooting? Well in Brian's book, he give the best, slap your palm on your forehead, Okay I understand now explanation of the Zen state I have heard yet. I appologize for any artistic license I may take but the explanation goes like this. You are driving down the freeway, singing with the radio or fantasizing about your best girl or whatever your consciuos mind might conjure up meanwhile you subconscious mind is monitoring speed, side view mirrors, rearview mirror, fuel, oil and alt gauges, traffic, road vibrations and noise. All can be monitored faster and more efficiently than with conscious effort. Remember the stress and tension you felt when you were learning to drive and your conscious mind performed these tasks.

Now your subconscious mind or if I dare say a Zen state can make lightening quick decisions in a rapidly changing environment with incredible accuracy without stress or tension. That is what Zen has to do with competitive shooting... and many find it useful in other areas of their lives.

[short_round]

the something that is fairly obvious in a round-about way

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem with trying to describe an experience is that it usually has to already be experienced to understand the description. You can have people tell you what it is like to "see the sight lift" a thousand different ways. I bet none of these ways truly describe what you experience when you finally see it ... neither will the words you choose to describe it either.

How much more difficult is it to describe an emotion or a feeling?

... maybe it's best to say it's more obvious to someone who has already been there. A light to make more clear the way they are already going, or a reminder to take the turn to go down a path they've already taken. For everyone else, it's directions hopefully good enough to get them to a place they have not yet been and talk of a road sign hopefully they see when they come upon it.

that makes the speaker feel clever

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... in truth you will find sincerity.

[shred]

Now your subconscious mind or if I dare say a Zen state  can make lightening quick decisions in a rapidly changing environment with incredible accuracy without stress or tension. That is what Zen has to do with competitive shooting... and many find it useful in other areas of their lives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is that Zen, the Zone, or both?

[Loves2Shoot]

Zen for those who take life too seriously

1. Save the whales... Collect the whole set.

2. A day without sunshine is like... Night.

3. On the other hand, you have different... Fingers.

4. I just got lost in thought. It wasn't familiar territory.

5. 42.7 Percent of all statistics are made up on the spot!

6. 99 Percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.

7. I feel like i'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

8. Honk if you love peace and quiet.

9. Remember, half the people you know are below average.

10. He who laughs last thinks slowest.

11. Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.

12. The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the

cheese.

13. I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

14. Support bacteria. They're the only culture some people have.

15. Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7 of your week.

16. A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.

17. Change is inevitable, except from vending machines.

18. Get a new car for your spouse. It'll be a great trade!

19. Plan to be spontaneous tomorrow.

20. Always try to be modest, and be proud of it!

21. If you think nobody cares, try missing a couple of payments.

22. How many of you believe in psycho-kinesis? raise my hand.

23 Ok, so what's the speed of dark?

24. How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink?

25. If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked

something.

26. When everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.

27. Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now.

28. Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just do not have film.

29. If barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

30. How much deeper would the ocean be without sponges?

31. Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.

32. What happens if you get scared half to death twice?

33. I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out.

34. I couldn't repair your brakes, so i made your horn louder.

35. Why do psychics have to ask you for your name?

36. Inside every older person is a younger person wondering-what

happened?

37. Just remember, if the world didn't suck, we would all fall off.

38. Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear

bright until you hear them speak,

[AikiDale]

...but I'm starting to wonder if "Zen" just means the statement of something that is fairly obvious in a round-about way that makes the speaker feel clever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Zen training, or Zen meditation, is a process of learning to quiet yourself in order to be able to pay attention. Most of us, most of the time, have a running commentary going on in our heads that would make Robin Williams seem normal. Zen training teaches us how to control the mind, quiet that voice and pay better attention to reality. Many of the cute 'Zen like' statements of the obvious have nothing to do with Zen, or the Koan training which they seek to imitate.

The book BigDave mentioned, Zen Mind, Beginners Mind, is excellent and highly recommended. You might also want to check out Three Pillars of Zen by Philip Kapleau for a 'nuts and bolts' how to if you are so interested. Another good read which really applies to shooting is Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel. He was a German philosophy professor who wanted to learn about Zen. Zen is done, not studied as he found out and his experience is worth reading.

[John Heiter]

I suppose there is more (maybe much more) to it than what I've been seeing but it's hard to appreciate that when you see so many silly one-liners labeled "Zen". Example: I see a post like the one from short_round above and it contains a lot of good information that makes sense to me. I understand that there are certain experiences that you can describe all day long but the person you are describing them too won't really understand until they experience it for themselves, losing a loved one, being the victim of a violent crime, making a perfect double-haul cast, or even just seeing the sights lift. That is a valid point, it's an intelligent observation, and it is appreciated...but then it is followed by a little one liner of wisdom "in truth you will find sincerity" and I just don't get it. I think Zen would have a lot more credit in my book if people weren't always trying to boil it down to some 10 word or less fortune cookie catch phrase that would be at home on one of those motivational kitty posters.

Maybe I've just been spending too much time here

Despair.com

Anyway, thanks for everyone taking the time to discuss instead of just assuming I wasn't intelligent enough to "get it".

[short_round]

Maybe I've just been spending too much time here

Despair.com

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's too bad for me that I personally understand every one of those posters ... happy are those that don't get it.

(that last little blurb was for you John )

[brother bad]

to respond to the original poster's query.

there is nothing to 'understand'

there is only the act.

good books suggested above, also. there are quite a few more available, as well but paul reps book is probably the best place to start.

you might also look into some of the taoist texts.

[benos]

I think Zen would have a lot more credit in my book if people weren't always trying to boil it down to some 10 word or less fortune cookie catch phrase that would be at home on one of those motivational kitty posters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually 10 words is 10 words too many. Sorry, couldn't resist.

That is not to say that words are wrong or unimportant. But it does hint at our dependence on words, upon which all of our speculations, ideas, beliefs, hopes, and fears are founded.

be

[cep]

Zen is unconscious mastery. Meaning you are so practiced that you perform a skill without having to think about it. I have that feeling shooting my longbow. I can close my eyes and hit the spot. Of course I have shot a longbow for many years. I can visualize the arrows trajectory before I take the shot. In fact, that is necessary because longbows do not have sights. It is good body mechanics combined with memorization of an arrows trajectory.

[short_round]

... some light reading from "The Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra

... interesting statement at the end regarding Eugen Herrigel's little book Zen in the Art of Archery:

"Herrigel's description of archery is one of the purest accounts of Zen because it does not talk about Zen at all."

[Heath]

Several people have recommended "Zen in the Art of Archery" to me. I suppose I should read it.

[short_round]

... everytime I read the title of this thread I think of Edwin Starr and want to break into song:

I said - Zen! Huh – Good God y’all

What is it good for?

Absolutely nothing

Say it again

[carinab]

... everytime I read the title of this thread I think of Edwin Starr and want to break into song:

                        I said - Zen! Huh – Good God y’all

                        What is it good for?

                        Absolutely nothing

                        Say it again

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Inspired!

[AikiDale]

Several people have recommended "Zen in the Art of Archery" to me.  I suppose I should read it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should. The best Zen books however are about 2 inches thick.

[Merlin Orr]

Zen is unconscious mastery.  Meaning you are so practiced that you perform a skill without having to think about it.  I have that feeling shooting my longbow.  I can close my eyes and hit the spot.  Of course I have shot a longbow for many years.  I can visualize the arrows trajectory before I take the shot.  In fact, that is necessary because longbows do not have sights.  It is good body mechanics combined with memorization of an arrows trajectory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh Yes! Like telephathy.. the nock looks like a BB as it rises and falls to the exact dot/spot you aim for - no strike that - you are looking at.

[tightloop]

[brother bad]

Several people have recommended "Zen in the Art of Archery" to me.  I suppose I should read it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should. The best Zen books however are about 2 inches thick.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nah, the best zen books have never been written.

[AikiDale]

Several people have recommended "Zen in the Art of Archery" to me.  I suppose I should read it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should. The best Zen books however are about 2 inches thick.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nah, the best zen books have never been written.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I stand by my post. Two inch thick Zen books make great zabuton.

[BigDave]

Foamy is all over it!!!