Action Pistol Rules Committee

[Trader]

Is ICASE a reality or just a rules throwback idea? Is it is nothing but a retro rule book for the 10 or so ranges in the United States that still shoot AP?

[SRT Driver]

ActionPistolShooter,

Exactly!!!

KimberKid,

Exactly x 2. The NRA "lawyers" are using the same methodology as the NASCAR "laywers" that added restrictor plates at the super speedways. The reduced speed was supposed to increase safety. It does keep the pack closer together.

Look at what happened at the last race{edit: at Talladega}...a 33 car wreck since everyone was so close together. How safe is that?

[BigDave]

Martin - your suggestion that [para] "if you're not a member you really shouldn't criticize" really doesn't wash. That is like saying you must have cancer in order to study its symptoms. But, if you want to follow your suggestion to it's logical end, the entire AP board should be shooters. Otherwise, how do they know what is best for AP? Actually, that's a great idea, but sadly it is also far from reality.

[Allgoodhits]

Kimberkid,

My attempt was to point out the following. The NRA has 3,000,000 plus MEMBERS, I don't know exactly but I would guess that there are maybe 125 NRA MEMBERS who are active NRA AP Shooters. By Active I mean those who shoot NRA AP other than just the Bianchi Cup. Of the 147 or so 2005 BC shooters, about 20-30 of them apparently did not have to belong to the NRA, under agreement or reciprocity or whatever.

Out of a 3,000,000+ member constituency the squeeking of a wheel that has maybe 125 members is really not going to get much attention. The NRA like any bureacracy is dependant on numbers. Us NRA AP shooters do not have the numbers. The tail does not wag the dog.

What is attendance of NRA AP matches other than BC. I would say 10-40 people with 12-17 people probably most common. I don't know the exact figure for Approved vs Registered, but I think it is about $4-5 per shooter for Approved and $7-8 per shooter for the Registered Matches that the NRA gets. Clearly we AP shooters are not a profit center for the NRA.

Hell, I don't agree with the rule changes and I didn't agree with the changes a couple years back either. We are just not going to get far with there only be a handful of us. Power and influence in numbers is the way to go.

Additionally. I don't think the NRA sends classification cards to non-members. Hmmmm, don't join, don't get classified......shoot a lot of NRA matches without getting classified, then go to the Bianchi Cup as UNCLASSIFIED and we have seen how that goes. The NRA has done a poor job of managing AP and the Bianchi Cup.

The NRA like the USA has a ton of faults. But no organization has done more for shooters than the NRA. Kind of hard to shoot without guns. Personally I think anyone who shoots in the NRA National Action Pistol Championships should be required to belong to the organization that runs it. I recently shot the Winamac Match and as I recall some of the entry fee went to join (or contribute to) some Indiana Association and to my knowledge there was no complaint on that. We paid $60 to "join" Green Valley for less than a week. Again we support the entities which help us, yet we are so quick to bash on the NRA because they don't want to hear us 125 shooters. We just don't have the numbers to have influence, sad but true.

Keep up the fight! JOIN and COMPLAIN! You can even complain about joining. It's like voting.....just vote!

MJ

JOIN NRA, because your gun bag may be empty someday without it!

[SRT Driver]

Remember the comment: "the sqeaky wheel get replaced"?

There are 1200 or so classified Action Pistol competitors (you have to be an NRA member to be classified). Maybe half of those shoot a match a year with a far smaller number active. Of the active group, less than 150 went to the 'Cup.

Of the 150, 25 to 30% are foreign. And 25 to 30 shoot AP for the few weeks preceeding the 'Cup. That leaves us with the 80 to 100 responses the NRA received about the rule change.

1100 don't make a sound, 100 squeak. Who do they want replaced?

And it does not matter if you are a foreign competitor, a regular member, or a benefactor member. The result is the same.

[SRT Driver]

We paid $60 to "join" Green Valley for less than a week.

Martin,

Maybe things changed since I last shot the 'Cup but the $60 was to use the practice range.

[Allgoodhits]

Martin - your suggestion that [para] "if you're not a member you really shouldn't criticize" really doesn't wash.  That is like saying you must have cancer in order to study its symptoms.  But, if you want to follow your suggestion to it's logical end, the entire AP board should be shooters.  Otherwise, how do they know what is best for AP?  Actually, that's a great idea, but sadly it is also far from reality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Big Dave,

Your cancer analogy is out there, but I hear ya. I see it more like this. The guy who only ever votes in Presidential Elections, should reserve some of his complaining about how his local politicians run his little town. If he doesn't vote (join in the decision) in local elections then he has contributed to the problem of poor local managers. Get involved and joining an organization is a way of getting a voice "as a member of the organization" or as a voter. Yes, great idea the AP Committee should be made up of AP shooters. AP shooters who shoot AP matches in addition to BC.

The main point however is, we need more shooters. A group of less than 150 is not going to get a lot of attention. Of those how many wrote to the NRA or AP Committee Members. Posting on this forum doesn't count. How many actually wrote in? Twenty maybe 30 persons would be my guess.

Further my comment, was more in line with as a member your voice is louder. Without membership complaints are but a whisper to the organization.

Thank goodness John Bianchi, Ray Chapman and who ever else set the BC up in 1979 "changed" some rules. Because what they came up with then was "out of the box" at that time, but look at us now. We bitch, we complain, we continue....then it repeats.

MJ

[SRT Driver]

About Camp Perry:

"The National Matches are among the largest and most prestigious shooting championships in the world," said NRA Director of Competitive Shooting, M.S. Gilchrist. "This year we expect some 4,800 participants of all skill levels to visit Camp Perry to shoot with, and learn from, the finest rifle and pistol shots in the country. Some of our most interesting input comes from the mixture of shooting enthusiasts; from youngsters eager to learn about the sport to seniors who contribute their valuable experience."

Hmmmm!

[goldfieldshooter]

Hi Guys

MJ sorry if I ruffled a few feathers but as I stated AP is not only shot in MO but worldwide. We do belong to the NRA because Pistol NZ is affiliated. We have no voting rights but from what I gather that doesn't mean squat when the 'committee' is appointed and not elected anyway. I have my classification card because I shoot at Bianchi but it only covers my shoots at sanctioned matches in the USA. It is the same as any American coming overseas to shoot; your membership allows you to shoot in our competitions but not to vote in our elections. The big difference is that the NRA rules are adopted worldwide and to shoot on a level field at MO we have to shoot by them. IF I for one minute thought that by joining the NRA it would make a difference to the running of AP I would not hesitate but as in most organisations the only way to change is to change from within it is just to far to travel to meetings.

Actually, just thinking but why don't you guys hop on the plane and come and visit us. We have the Kiwi Cup in October and the Aussie Nationals are just a week or so later. We can arrange accomadation ,reloading etc. Anyone interested?

Ask the guys that have been, we have the best ranges in the world, no BS.

IC

[Allgoodhits]

Hi Guys

          MJ sorry if I ruffled a few feathers but as I stated AP is not only shot in MO but worldwide. We do belong to the NRA because Pistol NZ is affiliated. ...

...  Actually, just thinking but why don't you guys hop on the plane and come and visit us. We have the Kiwi Cup in October and the Aussie Nationals are just a week or so later. We can arrange accomadation ,reloading etc. Anyone interested?

Ask the guys that have been, we have the best ranges in the world, no BS.

IC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ian,

No feathers ruffled here. I'm just thinking more power in numbers. The NRA Board of Directors are elected by the Members. As a Member one gets a VOTE. The Board of Directors are required to serve on various committees. Two of those COMMITTESS are the AP Committee and the RULES Comittee. If we as Members let the Directors know that they will not get our VOTE, due to their "position" then they will begin to get the picture. This is the message that I attempted but failed to get across in my first reply to your post. I am not the best wordsmith.

The NRA is masterful at using BIG statistics. But big "percentage" statistics don't carry much weight when the pool is 150 shooters at a tournament which is "The Most Prestigious Pistol Tournament in the World". What am I, (or the NRA) missing?

I regret that I never made it to NZ or Australia while JC was around. I guess I had better make the trip before......you know, we are all getting older! I have heard of the terrific ranges and matches that you have.

MJ

p.s. Hi to Lyn for us.

[8shooter]

Without getting into specifics or proposed rule changes etc.

Myself and a good friend are just starting to get interested in AP .... All this political BS and whining is not very inviting, almost enough to scare someone away from shooting.

If I didn't keep investing my kids inheritance in firearms, I would possibly be looking at another form of recreation.

[Kimberkid]

Martin,

I must not have worded what I was trying to say properly. I follow your logic about being a member so you have a voice and can use your vote to influence the higher ups that make these choices. My response is that it doesnt matter if you are a member of the NRA, whatever state association, Pistol NZ, or the Mickey Mouse Club, no one is listening. I dont think the higher ups give a rodent's rectum about the shooters or what they might do with their "votes". If any of these alleged votes were being listened to, the Rules Commitee would be 100% shooters and 0% lawyers and politicians. I also dont deny what the NRA does for gunowners, but gunowners and shooters are very different groups of people. While they have done great things for our right to bear arms, they impose their own "Assualt Grip Safety Ban" and the "Trigger Pull Act of 2005".

8shooter~ I fear that I have done much to discourage you and for that I am greatly sorry. This is the best game anywhere in the world and I hope you shoot it all you life as it will bring you great joy. What bothers me, and many others is that they have taken something beautiful and are seeking to mangle it into extinction. Please get in and shoot it as much as you can, I just am sorry that it isnt as awesome as it used to be.

Also, to be an annual member of the club at Winimac you has to also be a member of the IN state association. I dont believe that any part of your entry went there.

[8shooter]

8shooter~ I fear that I have done much to discourage you and for that I am greatly sorry. This is the best game anywhere in the world and I hope you shoot it all you life as it will bring you great joy. What bothers me, and many others is that they have taken something beautiful and are seeking to mangle it into extinction. Please get in and shoot it as much as you can, I just am sorry that it isnt as awesome as it used to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mike,

I wasn't putting blame on any particular individual, but it takes great strength to assume responsibility and for that I thank you.

I will start shooting AP that is for sure, I am one that never lets politics get in the way of anything I want to achieve. I also hope that my attendance alone will help strengthen the sport.

Ryan

[Action Pistolero]

We had a match in Bluefield on Sat and tried out the black X ring. If you were looking at the results you would find that it didn't make a real difference in the scores. Just because the X ring is black doesn't mean that the shot will go there. The shooter still has to have the discipline to not fire the shot until the dot or front sight is in the spot.

Back when the NRA seemed to be more concerned about participation than rule changes the president of a prominant shooting organization sent in an email to NRA stating that if they wanted to get the numbers up they needed to mark the center of the target. I'm paraphrasing here because I don't have the email in front of me. He seemed to think that if the X ring was marked shooters from other disciplines would be more willing to try it.

The other thing that has bothered me since I started shooting the Cup in 2000 was that the Super Squad always got to shoot the events when the lighting had a real good chance of being good. I don't have anything against the shooters on that squad but I thought that I could eventually shoot well enough to qualify for those times. This is apparently not the case. For the last four years I have finished 21st, 31st, 17th and 20th. I have yet to shoot the mover at any other time than before noon. I pushed for this change to try to even the playing field as far as how the target appears to the shooter. As some of you are well aware I have seen this problem at numerous ranges besides Green Valley. Mike told me before I got to Winnamc to be sure to shoot the Barricade before late morning. At Liberty, MS the sun is always behind the targets and if you try to shoot early in the morning you may well be shooting throught the fog. San Antonio is not the best place to shoot in the morning. Lake Charles the lighting always seems to be good. I remember shooting the mover at Brookston through the shadows. At Topton the center of the target is your best guess on the Practical. The same goes for Bedford on a sunny day. I've stood 3 feet from the target looking for rings in Factoryville. At Bluefield and Hinton there are times when you can't see a thing. The point to all this that the playing field is not equal at all but one of the ranges that I've shot at. If you've ever shot the Advanced Military Pistol event you would know how pleasant it is to just shoot the target at 50 yards and not have to worry where center is.

If you were to talk to the shooters that shot at Bluefield you would find that the reactions were positive. Some said it didn't seem to make a difference and others liked it.

There is a Regional this Sat. in Berrien Springs, Michigan. I hope to see a few of you there.

Kevin

[GrantJ]

Sorry guys, I am not in favor of the black x ring. The plan originally was to make it so the scoring rings we not visible. If we have to head down this track, print the scoring rings in black instead of using the perforated template. This would also help the scorers.

GrantJ

[BigDave]

If we had black scoring rings, how will they call the grease marks on black perfs?

[Action Pistolero]

Grant,

Then why not do away with the rings all together.

At this point I don't think this will work out anyway. I talked to the guy at the Target Barn last night and he told me that any print marks on the target would have to be done in a separate operation. That means that you could not guarantee that the rings and the perfs would line up. He suggested a 4" black paster. It could then be shooters choice?

Kevin

[Lee]

I shot the match at Bluefield with the black centers and I liked them. I did hear at least one person that didn't feel the same.

Using the 4" pasters seems the ideal solution to me. Shooters choice.

Kevin

[TonyH]

Okay my 2 cents now for what it's worth. I've been shooting AP for over 20 years & the Cup for 16. We need to leave the targets alone & just take the time to start learning where the center of the target is. Nobody said we were to make this easier, it was meant to be different & harder than some of the other disciplines. That's what makes our sport unqiue. I have shot in all sorts of different conditions as most everyone else has, you just learn to deal with it. I've been there at the 10 yd. line on the Practical when the targets turn & there nothing there but cardboard, no rings, no nothing. Again it was something I learned to expect at times, so we practiced like some others have, with the targets backwards, which helped you learn center mass. Our effort should be put into leaving the rules alone & getting more of our youth & shooting partners into AP, we all have someone who has talked about shooting AP but hasn't yet. Take them out & have them give it a try, what's not to like. Sure it may be hard at first, but thats where it got me interested in accuracy with a pistol & trigger control. AP will do nothing but make you better.

Just my 2 pennys,

Tony

[8shooter]

Okay my 2 cents now for what it's worth. I've been shooting AP for over 20 years & the Cup for 16. We need to leave the targets alone & just take the time to start learning where the center of the target is. Nobody said we were to make this easier, it was meant to be different & harder than some of the other disciplines. That's what makes our sport unqiue.  I have shot in all sorts of different conditions as most everyone else has, you just learn to deal with it. I've been there at the 10 yd. line on the Practical when the targets turn & there nothing there but cardboard, no rings, no nothing. Again it was something I learned to expect at times, so we practiced like some others have, with the targets backwards, which helped you learn center mass. Our effort should be put into leaving the rules alone & getting more of our youth & shooting partners into AP, we all have someone who has talked about shooting AP but hasn't yet. Take them out & have them give it a try, what's not to like. Sure it may be hard at first, but thats where it got me interested in accuracy with a pistol & trigger control. AP will do nothing but make you better.

Just my 2 pennys,

Tony

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm with you Tony.

[GrantJ]

Me to

For a start the current targets ar made in a die cut operation. They are stamped, for want of a better term in one hit. I was not talking about overprinting the current perforated scoring lines but replacing them with printed ones. Kevin is right though, this would be another operation that would increase the target cost.

The end result, don't ---- (Mess) with the target, it works fine the way it is.

GrantJ :

[gm iprod]

Leave the targets, until there is a tie at a major competition at 1920-192X.

Then maybe do something about the targets.

An aiming mark (in any shape or form) is not going to help.

The only alternative to the way the targets are currently made is to have a target printed onto card. This will be grossly more expensive than the current system, as we will have to pay for card to be cut, then run through a printing machine. Not good for the pocket book.

[Allgoodhits]

Leave the targets, until there is a tie at a major competition at 1920-192X.

Then maybe do something about the targets.

An aiming mark (in any shape or form) is not going to help....

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The target is not the problem. So if the black dot solves the light issue, then what do you do for wind and rain?

The real issue, and it is being skirted, is that some know in advance that they will be shooting certain matches in a certain order and at approximate certain "likely good" light conditions.

Do random squadding for "everyone". The target visibility, wind, rain and the like will be simply lucky or unlucky. I know this may have an impact on the almost nonexistent media coverage, but it may also yield some surprises. This year light was good for me, but I shot 0830 everyday and two matches day one. I could see, I just couldn't shoot! Black dots or anything else wouldn't help the fact that I was not functioning "cold" that early. I should have gone to the practice range (couldn't shoot before 0800) and at least dry fired or something. Quite frankly I just got unlucky squadding, to someone else they may have flourished shooting cold first thing in the morning. That's competition, that's why we love to hate it!

Kevin or anyone else. Could you provide the names of the persons and contact info for the RULES COMMITTEE MEMBERS. I think if, we want some say in the trigger pull or other "agenda" items they should be delivered to them. So, Kevin we also need the "agenda" items which will go before the RULES COMMITTEE.

I believe all members of the RULES COMMITTEE are NRA BOARD members, thus elected!

MJ

[gm iprod]

MJ you're right.

But I did see BruceP up on the top mover right after me on the first morning, he dropped ten points with his metallic sight gun (2nd gun) up there. We were 1 hour behind on the mover by 10.00am. So there were issues. None of which made me forget to swap the mover base.

We tried random squadding at the 1999 world shoot. It still favoured someone one way or another. So the organizers went round and everybody was GIVEN a set time for each match and everyone was given a fair spread of times around the matches. No one shot the match in the exact same order as anyone else. Anyone not involved at an International level (ie not representing their country) were given the least favoured times. But we were using a range that had all the matches facing the same direction, not spread around the compass like at Bianchi. So it was easier. No one was disadvantaged by their times and light conditions, except for changes in weather.

When they can arrange the weather properly then I will be happy

[dnelson]

I think I just added the Official Results for the Cup, sent to me by Rudy. It's 96 pages long so think about sending it to your printer. I've never added an attachment to any response on this forum so it may not work. If it doesn't work you can mail me and I'll forward it.

dn

P.S. After previewing this, the site won't allow it. Send me an email and I'll forward it to you.