Action Pistol Rules Committee

[Allgoodhits]

....  Martin. How would you like to write a letter to my boss telling him I need a raise and more shooting time. That letter to Rudy was awsome.

Coatesy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Employer of Ian, AKA Coatesy:

We Yanks across the big pond, want to ensure that we see Ian at least annually. In order for this to materialize, he needs materials. Materials such as bullets, powder, primers, cases, and other items of great expense related to the shooting sports.

I am sure you are aware of the spiraling oil prices, which effect about everything we use, and of course air travel. It is well documented amongst the shooting community and other sportsmen across the globe that men, and women are less productive in the work place if they are not well rested, well feed and enthusiastic about life. Increased interaction with others out of the work place also enhances ones attitude when they return to the work place.

The most effective way to accomplish all of this is to either sponsor Coatesy through his employment to subsidize his shooting, or increase his compensation so that he may otherwise increase his shooting. By doing this he will be a better worker in that he will be more relaxed, more productive, more intellegent as we will teach him a thing or two on his visits to the US. Further, we will have the opportunity to learn from him, thereby making the US/AU alliance more secure in fighting terrorists.

I am sure once you have come to the realization that this is for the benefit of Ian and others under your employ, that you will immediately see the need to form a shooting club within your corporate structure to support Ian and others, as it will ultimately make your business more productive.

In closing, if you decide not to support Ian's shooting then I have authorised him to advise you to "take this job and shove it". In other words, "show me the money" or I'm outa here. Thanking you in advance, I remain.

Respectfully,

[goldfieldshooter]

Well done

My boss had a good laugh and I am still employed.

Only one small point. New Zealand is not AU. That is like asking you what part of Canada is WV in. A good laugh and we all need those on a regular basis.

Going to stay with Karl this weekend as it is the Metallic National Champs at his club. Steve Berghan is over from AU and is staying at Karls also. So it should be a good weekend with two days of shooting and then the following weekend we have the Kiwi Cup in Hamilton. Another two days of shooting, talking, eating and drinking. Life can be good!

IC

Goldfieldshooter

[Allgoodhits]

...    Only one small point. New Zealand is not AU. That is like asking you what part of Canada is WV in. ...

Goldfieldshooter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ooops!

MJ

[kimmbeckwith]

Here is the e-mail I sent last week.

Kim

Dear Sir:

I was very disappointed in the release of Kevin Angstadt from the Action Pistol Committee. I think this was grave error of judgment on your or the Committee’s part. Kevin was a breath of fresh air and some of us thought our last chance at reviving the spirit of the Bianchi Cup. I have competed at the Bianchi Cup since 1985, only missing one year because of a severe burn that I suffered a few weeks before the match. 2004 may have been my last Cup!

I am really confused as to the direction NRA is taking with Action Pistol. Zero Ammunition would have never been a sponsor of this match had it not been for the integrity, honesty, and concern that was shown to competitors until 2003. Since then I feel NRA and the Action Pistol Committee has not been forthwith with their future plans for this match, communication has been nil. I did boycott the match this year because of the unprofessional attitude displayed by the Secretary of the committee at the competitors meeting to discuss the problems at hand. I felt that no-one at that meeting wanted to listen or really cared about what longtime competitors thought were changeable problems.

It was funny that after banquette one of the NRA representatives was helping hand out award packages, Rudy introduced me as one of the sponsors. This same man that was so rude to us during the meeting with his comments that You Think The Average NRA member gives a damn if there is a Bianchi Cup or not, couldn’t sugar coat his comments to me enough!

I have learned from being a part of a family business that has been serving bereaved families since 1913 you can’t treat people that way! Then when you find out they spend money with you, treat them differently? That doesn’t fly. I am no different than that first year shooter we are trying so desperately to get to come back.

I had thought that the committee had finally seen the light of day with appointing Kevin to the committee. He was not a National Champion in any NRA shooting sports, Not a sponsor, Just an Action Pistol competitor! Now that he has brought some of the shooters concern to the committee, and I am sure some things they didn’t want to hear, he has been released. It has shown us shooters that as Mr. Gilcrest stated in the Shooting Sports Magazine that sometime the squeaky wheel gets replaced! What a statement coming from the head of the NRA shooting division!

I have never wanted to surround myself with YES men, but apparently if you try to bring a different agenda to this committee and it is not in the light or direction they perceive as being correct you are replaced.

I am going to talk with Margaret Stalling the owner of Zero Ammunition Company and Zero Bullet Company and advise her of the situation and advise her that in my opinion that unless things change with this Committee’s direction and the NRA, maybe her money could be well spent elsewhere.

Zero has enjoyed a lot of success with this match, if you would take the time to look at your own equipment survey’s you would see the dramatic increase of competitors using our loaded ammunition and projectiles. It was through innovation that the Open Class allowed us to achieve the accuracy and success of Zero. That was product research and development done by myself, Ben Shockley, Jeff Rowe, George Mowbray & Justin Blackburn as well as numerous Action Pistol Competitors. Zero Ammunition’s Team has fared well at the Cup also.

I hope you will listen, it is about sunset and soon I am afraid darkness will fall on the Bianchi Cup! Most of us do not want the Bianchi Cup to leave the NRA, or a sister match started that would only cause fragmentation of this small competitor base.

Sincerely;

Kim M. Beckwith

[BigDave]

Nice letter, Kim. Did you send that to the chairman. I sent a letter to him last week, but I haven't received a response (and I did ask for one).

[kimmbeckwith]

Nice letter, Kim.  Did you send that to the chairman.  I sent a letter to him last week, but I haven't received a response (and I did ask for one).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes I did

[Leroy]

Martin,

Hey I work for myself most of the time...Can I fire me!! and have more time to shoot....I do need the pratice...

Kevin and Alan, are trying so hard to coach me but I am just too lazy or hard headed, BUT I am havin fun

Man I love the game but the people are the best part!

Let's all quit our jobs and get on welfare buy supplies with stamps...

What ya'll think about that???

Hum I think I worked too hard today..

Leroy

[Allgoodhits]

... What  ya'll think about that???

Hum I think I worked too hard today..

Leroy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kevin, you're working Leroy too hard!

Leroy, you need to stay out of the sun on those hot days.

Alan, keep an eye on both of them.

Kim, the letter was well done! Changing the posture of the NRA is akin to pushing a rope.

MJ

[Action Pistolero]

I have to say that I have been truly humbled by all of your posts on this forum, emails and phone calls that I have received in the last week. I sincerely thank you all.

Kim,

It will be interesting to find out if you or Dave got a response from Dwight. I want to thank Zero for sponsoring our matches this year. Zero is also helping out the junior that I have been working with by selling him bullets at dealer prices. He shot our registered matches last year as a Sharpshooter and made Master earlier this year.

I'm having a hard time figuring how Action Pistol shooters would be fragmented if someone started shooting Action type matches seperate from NRA. All NRA is concerned about are the numbers. They claim that they are already subsidizing our entry fees by $250. What's going to happen when the numbers drop below 100. I will not be going next year unless our junior shooter wants to go. It won't take long for them to dump Action Pistol or make it a trophy only match like the other NRA sports. Either way the Bianchi Cup will not look the same as we have known it.

What I would like to see is a National match moved to 3 weeks later in the year so that we can actually get some Juniors involved. Have a 22 category at the Nationals so that juniors don't have to be 16 or big for their age so that they can handle a centerfire. Moving it just 3 weeks would also make it easier to bring the whole family. Maybe I'm just optimistic but I think it would be a win win situation for us.

Martin,

Leroy must be grinding too many stumps because he hasn't been out with me for about 3 weeks.

Kevin

[kimmbeckwith]

I'm having a hard time figuring how Action Pistol shooters would be fragmented if someone started shooting Action type matches seperate from NRA.

Kevin: What I was getting at was that some like us, will not return if things stay the way they are, but others will stick with NRA Action Pistol Matches. Therefore splitting an already small group of shooters.

I just want the Open to go back to Open, give us prone back and forget about trigger pulls. If they want to try new stuff do it, just leave open alone, it is the rock and the inovation of the sport!

I didn't see a vast change in safety rules the year I shot the speed event and Julie was hit from some of my bullet fragments in the competitors tent and she couldn't finish competing for the womens speed event, and that actually happend! Have we had any AD at the Cup? If we have, I haven't herd of any.

The one thing I would really miss is the range personel that I have come to know so well through the years at the Cup.

AW for the old days! Guess we all beter get used to making new good old days!

Kim

[BigDave]

What really chaps me about this, other than I know Kevin and I hate to see good people get handled like, is that with Kevin gone, there really isn't a voice for Joe Bagodonuts AP shooter. The phrase I'm reminded of is, "no taxation without representation." It torques me to no end that, as it stands, me, nobody shooter, has no representation on the committee. Yeah, Doug and Don are shooters, but they aren't one of us.

[kimmbeckwith]

August 26, 2005

Mr. Beckwith,

Thank you very much for taking the time to write to me about Action Pistol. It is always important that the competitors have an open door to the Committee.

First, please allow me to begin by addressing your issue concerning the make-up of NRA committees. The current NRA President makes NRA Committee assignments, including Committee Chairmen, not Committee Chairman. Each NRA President makes Committee assignments that are consistent with the goals and objectives that they want to accomplish during their Presidency. Service on an NRA Committee is a privilege, not a right and each committee member serves “at the pleasure” of the President. Current needs, goals and objectives of NRA are always foremost in the mind of NRA Presidents when they make their committee assignments. Sometimes those goals and objectives are not readily apparent to all concerned and assignments are made with the overall “big picture” in mind. Past Committee service is not always an indicator of current and future needs to the Committee or the NRA as a whole.

Mr. Angstadt is to be thanked for his service which, by the way, is very much appreciated by President Froman the NRA and me. Mr. Jeff Rowe of Virginia filled “his slot” on the committee. Mr. Rowe is a current and long time Action Pistol shooter. In this case, the President replaced one club-level shooter with another club-level shooter. Please note that there were well over 50 individual changes in the make up of NRA committees during this last cycle. All of those changes, those of Mr. Rowe and Mr. Angstadt included, were made for the purpose of enhancing NRA programs Mr. Angstadt’s initial invitation to serve on the Action Pistol Committee was made by a different NRA President for the very same reasons.

Turning now to the allegation that NRA is trying to harm Action Pistol, let me say that nothing could be further from the truth. If the NRA was interested in “killing” Action Pistol it would simply be dropped from one of the more than 175 programs that NRA has under it’s umbrella, all of which compete for funds from the same NRA budget. In 2004, it cost NRA over $265 per Bianchi Cup competitor, just to break even. This year that number was even higher. By point-in-fact, the recent changes in the Rules indicate an overall desire to protect and expand Action Pistol over the long haul, not to harm it.

Which bring us to Rules. The Committee has instituted some rule changes, which, as I understand it, have not been well received by all concerned. Most of those changes have been the result of competitors’ suggestions and not all have been popular with everyone affected. We changed the prone rule allowing shooters to again go prone at the 25-yard line – a change that came from competitors. We have put a black aiming spot on the target – a change that came from competitors. When a Committee member brought this up, I asked if this was something the competitors wanted. We were told that this issue had come up before and the committee, including the competitors on the Committee, approved it. And now we hear a lot of grousing about that, which just goes to sow that we cannot possibly hope to please everyone all of the time. Removing the wings from the open gun, where’s that coming from? NOT from this committee.

The first rule that was so unpopular with some folks was the “All Safeties Must Work” rule. This requirement applies to every NRA competitive discipline where the competitors draw from the holster and many where they do not. With that language not in the firearms descriptions for Action Pistol, NRA Counsel felt that NRA had potential liability exposure which was unnecessary for the success of the sport. I am sure that you and all other safety-conscious NRA competitors can understand the fact that the firearms are initially manufactured with safeties and that it is totally indefensible to adopt a position that allows those safeties to be disabled. A single accidental discharge under those circumstances could cause great harm, not just to the person injured, but to our sport and to the NRA.

The issue of minimum “trigger pull” also resulted in certain individuals to question the Committee and our understandable desire to ensure that minimal safety standards are set and followed. Again NRA’s General Counsel felt that the Action Pistol Rules needed to contain a minimum trigger pull weight that was reasonable and defensible, especially in light of the fact that the competitor, draws the firearm from the holster during the competition. After a lengthy discussion, the Committee finally voted upon a 2-pound minimum trigger pull for all guns. That decision was not unanimous. Some members wanted a 1-pound minimum trigger pull, however, that proposal failed to garner enough votes on the committee to pass. Please understand that once an NRA shooting discipline Committee passes any rule changes those proposed changes then go the Competition Rules and Programs Committee for review and consideration. If passed out of The Competition Rules and Programs Committee the proposals then go to the Board of Directors for final approval and adoption. I will tell you that I was not in favor of the 1-pound trigger. I also don’t believe that it had a chance to pass out of the Competition Rules and Programs Committee. I believe that a 2-pound trigger will pass out of the committee and I will be pleased to talk in favor of the adoption of the rule.

Please bear in mind that the Competition Rules and Programs Committee has as its stated responsibility “The ESTABLISHMENT or approval of all rules for the conduct of all NRA shooting disciplines.” Had our committee not acted in a reasonable and responsible fashion on our own authority, it is entirely possible that either the Competition Rules and Programs Committee or the whole Board could have and probably would have taken the matter into their own hands. No one can, in good faith, defend not having a minimum trigger pull in a sport where the pistol is drawn from a holster.

In closing, please allow me to say that, as long time competitors - as all of the Action Pistol Committee members are, we are open to listening to what the competitors have to say. We understand and appreciate the need for competitor in-put into decisions that will affect them and their sport – that is as it should be. By the same token, competitors should also be sensitive to and appreciative of the fact that, as a member of the NRA Board of Directors, my first concern will always be for the welfare of the entire NRA and potential liability issues are first among equals in that regard. As a Board Member, when liability issues are brought to our attention we have a responsibility and a duty to act upon those issues and take steps to avoid problems, not just for those members who participate in Action Pistol, but for all 4 million NRA members as well. That responsibility and duty are placed upon us by law as well as by the oath each member of the Board takes to protect the association and the viability of the shooting sports.

New York Not-For-Profit Law governs the workings of the NRA Board of Directors and the Committees that operate under the auspices of the Board. It is our duty as committee members and as Board members to protect the Association and is members. That is exactly what we are doing, have done and will continue to do. Nothing that the Action Pistol Committee has done thus far has done anything to make participation any more difficult and several of the recent changes in the Rules have made our sport much safer for the everyday, club level competitor.

I hope that I have answered some of your questions and have given you at least some background as to the way in which our committee system works. NRA exists, in many respects, for the benefit of the competitive shooting community – Action Pistol included. I know that our officers, our staff and our Board are all supportive of competitive shooting programs and that all are supportive of Action Pistol as an NRA discipline and of The Bianchi Cup Championships as an institution.

Thank you,

Dwight Van Horn

CC: Rudy Dufour

[BigDave]

I received the same, exact letter.

And...I love this:

No one can, in good faith, defend not having a minimum trigger pull in a sport where the pistol is drawn from a holster.

What irresponsible wretches we are!!! Drawing from a holster!?!?!? With no minimum trigger pull!?!?!? What the hell is going through our heads?!?!?!? Please, someone call Bellvue, we all need to be committed!!!

Mr. Van Horn is clearly not an Action Pistol shooter. And I think that is a big problem for us.

[Kimberkid]

Dave,

ITS MADNESS!!!! all of us crazies running around here with these guns with light trigger pulls, and to think we must rely on ourselves to keep our fingers off the triggers until we intend to shoot. God bless the NRA for trying to save us from ourselves.

I am curious how these new rule changes have made us safer.

Old rules + no accidents = 100% safety

New Rules + No accidents = 100% safety

How is this safER? looks like the same to me?

I may just be a simple hillbilly, but that makes me so glad we have these brilliant legal minds to keep all us peons safe.

BTW everyone vote for me as the next NRA president and I will appoint Elmer Fudd and Carmen Electra to the rules committee so as to be sure we keep the "big picture" in mind and accomplish the goals and objectives of my rules committee.

[SRT Driver]

Everything was safe for 25 years and magically became unsafe?

The misconception persists that a light trigger pull is unsafe. An unsafe trigger is unsafe..even if it's 12 lbs. The old rules addressed unsafe triggers.

Also, I noticed that "competitors" are on the AP board, not AP Competitors. Rudy is a first class highpower/long range competitor. These "competitors" live with trigger pull restrictions as all of the other NRA sports have minimum trigger pulls.

This might be why it is no big deal to them.

[GeorgeInNePa]

August 26, 2005

Mr. Beckwith,

Thank you very much for taking the time to write to me about Action Pistol. It is always important that the competitors have an open door to the Committee. 

-SNIP-

No one can, in good faith, defend not having a minimum trigger pull in a sport where the pistol is drawn from a holster.

-SNIP-

Thank you,

Dwight Van Horn

CC:  Rudy Dufour

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

14,000 USPSA members would, I believe, disagree with him.

[Ted Murphy]

  Please understand that once an NRA shooting discipline Committee passes any rule changes those proposed changes then go the Competition Rules and Programs Committee for review and consideration. If passed out of The Competition Rules and Programs Committee the proposals then go to the Board of Directors for final approval and adoption.

Now THAT is what I call a Bureaucracy!

Probably has to be in triplicate as well.

In 2004, it cost NRA over $265 per Bianchi Cup competitor, just to break even.

That cannot be good though.

Ted

[Allgoodhits]

Kim: I guess the ZERO family has become too big. You didn't know Jeff Rowe was the new candidate?

Jeff is a great guy, and a good friend of mine. However, Jeff shoots one AP Match a year, Bianchi. Jeff does shoot PPC, and Dwight van Horn is from PPC background.

Hmmmm, I wonder how the NRA Handgun Silhouette guys will feel when they learn that their .22 Hornet and .22 LR T/C Contenders can no longer have a 4-5 once trigger pull. I'm sure the safety wizards at NRA will require that change.

Kevin was likely replaced because he was perceived as the squeeky wheel.

[Alan550]

Martin,

I have to differ with you on Jeff's shooting. He's shot a couple of our matches here, since we're closer than the Hinton & Bluefield shoots. When there's no work schedule conflict, he's been here and has shot both Open and Metallic. A small point, I know, but I'm not sure they know what they're getting into if he gets on the rules committee, as I think he'll back us as well as Kevin did. Very outspoken fellow is that Jeff!

Alan~^~

[GrantJ]

Gentlemen

Once I have counted to ten another thousand times I will pen my personal response to Mr. Van Horn.

In the mean time I understand your feelings and frustration at the current circumstances, but in this forum we are all preaching to the choir. Mr. Van Horn is supposed to be our representative, and as such promote the will of the people. What he thinks or feels is beside the point! He obviously does not see it this way, so it is up to us to let him know. I strongly suggest that you all send him a personal note and make sure all other Action Pistol enthusiasts do the same. The email address I have on file is: ddvanhorn@adelphia.net

I would also suggest the you send a hard copy to the President of the NRA.

Later

GrantJ

[Allgoodhits]

Martin,

  I have to differ with you on Jeff's shooting.  He's shot a couple of our matches here, since we're closer than the Hinton & Bluefield shoots.  When there's no work schedule conflict, he's been here and has shot both Open and Metallic.  A small point, I know, but I'm not sure they know what they're getting into if he gets on the rules committee, as I think he'll back us as well as Kevin did.  Very outspoken fellow is that Jeff!

  Alan~^~

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan, and others, especially Jeff "Bulletman" Rowe;

My comment was not intended to be a derogatory of Jeff, and I don't think it was. I stand corrected, and apologize regardless. Ok, he has shot a few other AP matches. Don't take Kevin off, add Jeff and take Dwight Van Horn off!

If we had to loose Kevin, then Jeff is a good replacement. However, I still feel that no one that I am aware of, shoots more NRA AP matches annually and puts on or assists in putting on more AP Matches than Kevin in the US. These two situations, coupled with Kevin's eagerness to render opinions based on experience is invaluable, and in my opinion irreplaceable by anyone.

Kevin is self employed. The value in this, is that he can make schedules, he makes his own decisions and he has to make decisons in order to make things happen. He doesn't have the luxury of blaming others, or forming committees to study something forever. Finally, he is not a yes man. Most bureacratic leaders surround themselves with like minded, like thinking, like failing underlings, as anyone else is a threat or nonconformist.

I don't always agree with Kevin, but no one is a better advocate of NRA AP than Kevin. At the local level, the State Championship level, the Regional level and the BC. Kevin has done it all many times, year in and year out. His programs and other programs such has Bluefield and Bedford have grown and become better due to his involvement.

And the new NRA President (yeah right) wants him replaced? And are we to believe she made that decision solely on her own, without input from the Chair of the Committee, and without the "oiler" who just replaces squeeks rather than figure out what may have caused the squeek? I may have been born in the dark, but haven't stayed in the dark all my 52 years.

Jeff, we're counting on you! However, if he speaks his or our minds, he too will be replaced by this time next year. Only the invisible stay on such Committees as they are deemed a non threat. We all know you don't engage a "non threat".

Jeff too will become a casualty by next year.

According to Mr. Van Horn's reponse letter to Kim, the NRA President made the change. Hmmm. Perhaps we send a letter to her, stating that we will boycott all NRA AP programs until she replaces Mr. Van Horn. Because, as I recall most of this probelem came about since Mr. Van Horn, therefore he has become the squeeky wheel which needs replacement, and Mr. Gilchrist believes in this corrective technique to problems.

Out,

MJ

[Leroy]

Well I guess I will jump in here guys and try not to make a fool of me.

Removing Kevin from the committee was a SLAP in the face!!!!!!!!!!!!Grrrrrrrr

I am new to AP shooting only my 3rd year. But I know first hand how hard Kevin works for our sport. Not only shooting matches all over the country but helping new shooters like myself and going out of his way to keep us going. Man he has helped myself, in many ways..and many other shooters also..

I am excited to see Jeff on board he is a great shooter in many games and that is a plus!!!!

But why kick Kevin out ??? Hum ..because he knows what we want and need to keep the sport growing.. ???? Not a yes man MJ is right on target there.

I get so disgusted having leaders like Van Horn and his cronies, tell us we can't draw from a holster, go prone with a 1 lb trigger pull and be safe..Grrrrrrr..

We have vetrans from wars, policemen, and women, hunters that put food on the table and we need his direction to shoot safely? Give me a break!

It is sounding like our goverment telling us we need more goverment to lead us because we aren't able too ourselves.. Is Bill and Hillery running things here?

Yes I am angry. Don't get me started...

I can't fly an airplane but maybe I can pull some strings and get on a FAA rule committee.. Hum..

Now do you put the wheels down before landing or after?

Who cares just put them down when we tell you to and if that dont work we will change the rule next year. Ya rite...

Like i said I am new here but i have gotten my feet wet and I do feel like the NRA gods are tryin to kill ap shooting. It don't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Some squeeky wheels need replacing for sure, but I beleive we need to replace some upstairs.. It is running downhill and I don't like the smell.

ICASE may happen next year for sure. We can shoot the old rules and have a blast. Have a real rule committee with real shooters.. With real ears. and a brain to go with the ears.

I may go back to the cup in 06 but I may not.. Not sure at this point.

I need to close now before i go off on a deep end, but before I do.

I want to thank all who work so hard to support our sport, also Brian, for letting us view our voices on this great forum..

Leroy

[kimmbeckwith]

I talked to Jeff Rowe today, he didn't know he was on the committee until the reply that BigDave and I received from Dwight. He told me he hasn't been contacted other that the letter Dave and I recieved or told what his duties are.

He did assure me that he was completely on our side and wants things to be what they used to be! Open means open, prone anywhere is part of open.

One interesting fact. I haven't competed in PPC for a few years, but the only match that Jeff told me as in the old day is they still weigh triggers only in

the dist. match. The have matches with 2", 4" and open revolver and Auto, theses are all from the holster and triggers are not weighed!

Bad news is both Jeff and I both face surgery in the comming weeks and months. Jeff with Neck surgery and me Colon surgery. So wish us both luck, and I am sure Jeff will take off where Kevin left off!!!

Kim

[maui1911]

there is motions and thoughts going on all over the place, these shit stirrers changing the rules are the problem, what do we need to do to get rid of them and put things back to normal, the match should stay the way it has always been, i mean patches and rings etc,give me a break, jim reinholt had the right saying put it in the middle and pull the trigger, i mean 1920 with a lower x count is better than 1918 is that not so ? thats my two cents worth,

GO ACTION PISTOL 1920 CUP {LOOKING FOR NEW SPONSER}

[maui1911]

PS SAD TO SEE KEVIN GO JEFF YOU GIVE THEM HEAPS

kiwi cannibal