Action Pistol Rules Committee

[Alan550]

There's good and bad news, as you might imagine. The AP Rules Committee met today (6-11) and they didn't pass a 3.5 lb trigger pull minimum. They did , however, pass a 2.0 lb trigger pull minimum, with no specification as to revolver or semi-auto. This is only a "recommendation" to the NRA Rules committee which meets in Oct. That committee could over-ride the AP committee and still pass the 3.5 lb trigger rule

Some of us have asked for a defined aiming point, i.e. a 1" or 2" black paster in the center of the X-ring since there is a defined center in every other NRA shooting event. The recommendation of the AP Committee is for a 4" black center with no perforations at that point, and the usual 10 and 8 rings as before, with the rest of the target scoreing as 5, like before.

The Senior Award at the Cup will be renamed The John Cameron Memorial Senior Award.

There will be a separate .22 Jr. class at the Nationals

We didn't get back any more of the prone that we lost last year.

These are only "proposals" that go to the NRA Rules Committee in Oct. so nothing is "carved in stone" at this point.

The 2.0 lb trigger proposal passed on a 5-2 vote. Those who know who's on the committee.............figure it out! One shooter voted for it, along with the 4 non-shooters.

Alan~^~

[Trader]

When will ICASE (or whatever the name will be) offically be formed? I want to be the first to join.

The NRA rules commitee should have 1 non shooter at the most and I am tired of the NRA killing the sport. They did it a long time ago on the local level and the end is now near for the AP Nationals. The time for the new governing body of AP is here now.

[gm iprod]

I am preparred to wait until the rules are finalised, then it will be decision time.

However I must say I am pleased to see John Cameron honoured in the way he should be. When I left for home I unhappy with the way the NRA were taking Ap. But with John being honoured??????

Thnaks for all your work Kevin.

[dnelson]

A black 4" center without perforations????

That's all we needed to drive up the price of targets. GV buys them by the thousands and our price has doubled in the last two years. The 4" X ring is in the center of the target, that's where the dot should be placed. Are they looking for 1920 and 192X??? The rings were intended to be invisable, as best I can remember. That's AP!! Now we play the game of shooting on which range at a certain time of day. It does make a difference at the Cup, guess the 4" black dot would help get rid of that problem. AP routinely doesn't just paste targets for the next competitor and we don't use paper targets. This is not a good thing to do in my opinion, but it may take the heat off the trigger issue. It's a world of give and take.

Dan

[BigDave]

Can anyone post the names and contact information for the NRA Rules committee? There is a lot of time between now and October.

[SRT Driver]

Thanks Action Pistolero and DK for your efforts.

A black 4" center without perforations????

"The next course of fire is the Practical 50 yard slowwww fire..fired in three strings.

The first is one shot on each target in 7 minutes, the next is 2 shots on each target in 10 minutes and the final string, 3 shots on each target in 15 minutes all fired from the 50 yard line standing, strong hand unsupported."

"If the line is ready, with two rounds..LOOOOOOAD. Is the line ready? The line is ready. Ready on the right..... "

ARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!

If we wanted to shoot bullseye, we can still shoot bullseye.

Somebody from ICASE please talk to some sponsors and end this madness.

[Allgoodhits]

There's good and bad news, as you might imagine.  The AP Rules Committee met today (6-11) and they didn't pass a 3.5 lb trigger pull minimum.  They did , however, pass a 2.0 lb trigger pull minimum, with no specification as to revolver or semi-auto.  This is only a "recommendation" to the NRA Rules committee which meets in Oct.  That committee could over-ride the AP committee and still pass the 3.5 lb trigger rule

  Some of us have asked for a defined aiming point, i.e. a 1" or 2" black paster in the center of the X-ring since there is a defined center in every other NRA shooting event.  The recommendation of the AP Committee is for a 4" black center with no perforations at that point, and the usual 10 and 8 rings as before, with the rest of the target scoreing as 5, like before.

  The Senior Award at the Cup will be renamed The John Cameron Memorial Senior Award.

  There will be a separate .22 Jr. class at the Nationals

 

  We didn't get back any more of the prone that we lost last year.

  These are only "proposals" that go to the NRA Rules Committee in Oct. so nothing is "carved in stone" at this point.

  The 2.0 lb trigger proposal passed on a 5-2 vote.  Those who know who's on the committee.............figure it out!  One shooter voted for it, along with the 4 non-shooters.

  Alan~^~

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Cup must live! If not, then the John Cameron Senior Award will be in vain.

Black bullesye, trigger pull requirement........Hmmm.......next year a revolver in production, or metallic sight.

Open should be just that, open, almost anything goes. However, if Production then the NRA and Match Organizers need to do a better job of making sure "every gun" used in Production really is in compliance. The same argument will need to come into play if they do a trigger pull or other safety feature requirements. If it is important, then check for it on every gun. They chrono everyone's ammo, then trigger pull test every one's gun.

Actually I'm for doing away with Power Factor requirement. Just make it .355 caliber and above.....period, same ammo through out tournament. Most .355 autos won't run below 120,000 anyway and a .45 with bullets 230 gr running 522 fps are not a competitive advantage either. PF in NRA AP today is a waste of match organizer's and shooter's time and resources.

Thanks Kevin, Doug and others whom are fighting for us in the arena. We are merely spectators, most of which is just venting. Hell, I threaten to quit after every bad shot. Here lately that is way to damn frequent, but I'm too stupid to give it up......Regroup maybe, quit not yet! Change the rules, I'll change equipment or change approach. I will tame this beast. The beast must be tamed!

MJ

Charter Member: Overthehillshooters Club, TJA Club (trigger jerkers annonomous) really, I'm trying to quit, Tiredeyesshooters Club, I can'tdothisanymoreshooters Club, Toodumbtoquitshooters Club, and I'bebacknextyearshooters Club, Most recently I'mtoooldforthisshitanymoreshooters Club. Also,

NRA AP Distinguished #6

NRA PPC Distinguished #164

VA PPC Distinguished #1

PMA Distinguished #16

PMA 1490 Club

NRA 1480 Club

[Dirty Steve]

The aiming point (Black Circle) may have came from Action Pistolero. I am sure he will reply if it was him. But it came up durning the Cup when trying to shoot the mover in the morning hours the competitors are at a disadvantage. Those shooting afternoon will be able to see the X ring. It just kind of evens things out when lighting becomes a factor.

Dirty Steve, Out.

Actually I would like to see black rings on the target in addition to the Black X ring. Makes scoring easier to see at a glance. But I would wait a few years to do that if it is not done in conjunction with the black X ring.

[goldfieldshooter]

Hi Guys

To start with the good stuff.

Lyn [mummsie] Cameron has passed on her thanks at the naming of the Senior Award after John. She says she is just blown away and is feeling very humble.

NOW the bad stuff.

Why should we feel good about a 2lb trigger pull, black dots on targets and grip safeties? This is just a smoke screen to reverse the technology race. Until we are shooting GI issue 1911A1's,230gn hardball ammo or 38SP New Police revolvers at round white targets with black rings in the middle this "committee" will not be happy. In my 11yrs of AP shooting and RO'ing I have seen pistols dropped and bounce a 'few' times. Not one of those has discharged.

To shoot a D1 target in Australia against a clay backstop and not being able to see any rings at 10yds should be tried by all. Just practice on the back of targets.

This is AP shot by shooters and it should be governed by shooters. It is OPEN class shooting and has been shot as such for a good number of years with NO safety problems whatever. This is not going to promote the sport and get more shooters. You may see more NEW shooters, but only 'cos the old shooters have got p....d off with the endless tinkering of the best shooting sport invented.

If it aint broke don't fix it!

IC

[Trader]

Scoring lines on the targets should only be visible to the scorer, not the shooter. This would level the playing field for morning or afternoon advantages on a given range. The original intent was for center of mass shooting at speed, not a speeded up PPC. The black dot is the NRA version of a compromise while they are ruining everyones (safe) trigger work on their guns.

[BigDave]

I agree with Ian. Other than the naming of the the John Cameron award, the rest of this is just a stinking load.

Someone here made a reference to AP being the "NRA's sandbox". Well folks, they have dropped trowl and have pinched off a nice fresh one here in the Ol' Sandbox, huh? Fine, it's their sandbox. But, I hereby declare this sandbox is now a litterbox. I don't want to play in a litterbox. Anyone else?

[SRT Driver]

The black dot might make Met Sight a little easier but that was not the original intention of the match. It was meant to be hard!

Sunlight is the luck of the draw.

[Dirty Steve]

When I stated I would like to see black lines, I ment thin ones I could plainly see when they pull the targets then show them to you prior to bagging them. Not big thick things visible at 15 yards in bad light.

The center aiming dot is a good thing. Why you ask? Well, I'll tell you. Because a shooting competition is supposed to be to find out who the best shot is not which good shooter drew the best shooting times. And I still say metallic shooters should be allowed to follow the same prescribed shooting positions as the open guys. I would not do it because I am fat, old and slow. But they should not be handycapped because they decide to shoot Metallic.

Dirty Steve, Out.

[Action Pistolero]

Steve,

For once we seem to be on the same page. You're right. I'm the one that brought up the black x ring. I originally wanted a 1 or 2 inch dot. Then it grew to 4 inches to help out the Metallic guys. I just brought it up. There had been submissions to the comittee about it.

I shot a match in Topton, PA on Sunday and we tried the black dot on the mover. Actually, we were playing with both a black and a white x ring. Doug's concern was that you wouldn't be able to see your hits on the target with it being black. It's surprising just how well you can see them. I didn't like the white. It seemed to blur out the whole middle of the target. We tried marking the perforations with a black marker. That didn't work very well.

For those of you that don't like this idea, try it. You may just like it. Just because you can see the middle doesn't mean that you're automatically going to shoot a better score. Since it looks like we will be stuck with a 2 pound or better trigger pull we will need the time we used to find the target center to work the trigger. Brian has said many times to either mark the target so that you can see the rings or do away with the rings all together. I think marking the target is the better approach.

Kevin

[Leroy]

Steve,

For once we seem to be on the same page. You're right. I'm the one that brought up the black x ring. I originally wanted a 1 or 2 inch dot. Then it grew to 4 inches to help out the Metallic guys. I just brought it up. There had been submissions to the comittee about it.

I shot a match in Topton, PA on Sunday and we tried the black dot on the mover. Actually, we were playing with both a black and a white x ring. Doug's concern was that you wouldn't be able to see your hits on the target with it being black. It's surprising just how well you can see them. I didn't like the white. It seemed to blur out the whole middle of the target. We tried marking the perforations with a black marker. That didn't work very well.

For those of you that don't like this idea, try it. You may just like it. Just because you can see the middle doesn't mean that you're automatically going to shoot a better score. Since it looks like we will be stuck with a 2 pound or better trigger pull we will need the time we used to find the target center to work the trigger. Brian has said many times to either mark the target so that you can see the rings or do away with the rings all together. I think marking the target is the better approach.

Kevin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Leroy]

Kevin

May I have a 4 inch dot on the Leroy Plate??

leroy

[Dirty Steve]

Kevin,

Whoo Hoo, I was right. I like the idea but then I told you that at the Cup..

Dirty Steve, Out.

[BigDave]

When I stated I would like to see black lines, I ment thin ones I could plainly see when they pull the targets then show them to you prior to bagging them. Not big thick things visible at 15 yards in bad light.

The center aiming dot is a good thing. Why you ask? Well, I'll tell you. Because a shooting competition is supposed to be to find out who the best shot is not which good shooter drew the best shooting times. And I still say metallic shooters should be allowed to follow the same prescribed shooting positions as the open guys. I would not do it  because I am fat, old and slow. But they should not be handycapped because they decide to shoot Metallic.

Dirty Steve, Out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does anyone acknowledge the fact that AP is shot at places other than Columbia, MO? Anyone?

What the hell is going on here? Now we are messing with the targets? Come on, guys! "Well, every other NRA target has a center aiming mark." Am I wrong, or did the Bianchi Cup exist before the NRA came in a took over? If I am indeed wrong, that's okay. But, for crying out loud, this has got

Bad lighting doesn't make the challenge any more or less hard, unless you can't see the target at all if you ask me. And if that's the case, let's go hog wild and build covers over all the ranges with nice, pretty lights Mmmmm...okay?

Aren't things jacked up enough as it is? It is only getting worse and this certainly isn't helping. My bitching here isn't either, I know. But, can we get back to solving the problem with the damn gun, please?

[Leroy]

Ok I guess i will jump in and give my 2 cents worth..

I have only been shootin ap for 2 years now and went to my first cup. Thanks for all the help from Kevin and Alan..

I don't like the trigger pull rule for sure... I just don't see the need.. All the AP shooters I have seen can handle 1 lb or less-- with no problem at all with saftey.

I don't like the grip saftey rule either... Hey we have a thumb saftey and when you draw the grip saftey is de-activated ... what is the point

However if you think about it this is the only acurcery game with no bulls eye!

I will take a bulls eye to shoot at.. i need all the help i can get ..

I hear some of you pros say the light don't matter but in just my little time shootin it makes a big difference to my tired old eyes.

I guess we are all different...

But hey it is the NRA's game and we have to play by the rules or go home..

I just want to thank Kevin and all the other shooters on the commettiee for all the hard work and time you put in for our defense...

Martin had a some great points also...

I did not know John Cameron my loss for sure from I have heard and saw at the cup.. He must have been a great guy hell I hope i can leave that kind of impression... So I said i would not go back to the cup but here is eating crow.

I agree with Martin it would all be in vain if we don't Hell it is still a lot of fun and a great bunch of people and even not knowing John I will still go back for him...

I am just gonna suck it up and pratice more.. I aint that good any way but I am having a lot of fun and meeting some great people.. and I beleive that is what it is all about to me...

Leroy

Still lookin for that buzzard!

[dnelson]

The black dot might make Met Sight a little easier but that was not the original intention of the match.  It was meant to be hard!

Sunlight is the luck of the draw.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The scoring rings were intended to be invisable. As far as making it easier for Met Sight competitors, Robby posted a 1910 153X this year. He's truly an exceptional competitor and gentleman. 153X with Met Sights, no hold on the barricades, standing on all but the 50 yd. Practical. I don't know if he goes prone or not.

Sunlight is the luck of the draw - Not sure that is truly the case, but I don't make those determinations and feel the Officals do their best to mix things up. I'm sure a number of competitors shooting two guns made the squading even more difficult and a number of folks like to shoot at times close to a friend who they might be traveling with. The Officials spent a number of hours trying to please as many competitors as possible and every request for consideration was fulfilled as best they could.

Looking forward to 2006, Dan

[SRT Driver]

The mover is not bad in the morning at Chapman but the Practical is horrible in the late afternoon.

You have to know where the middle is!!! Some industrious shooters have made reticles that make punching out the middle easier (ie the tombstone and diamond reticles) but everyone in Met sight is in the same boat..no artificial help.

[goldfieldshooter]

OK:-

For a start if you can see the rings, the holes in the target and the new black 4inch centre you are as sure as hell not looking at the dot in the scope. Gee I just shot a big fat eight, s--t there's another one! Sound familiar? You shoot where you look.

Try turning the targets over and shooting at the backs. No rings for the sun to highlight and no black dots or lines either. You estimate where the centre is and shoot at that. IF at the end of the day your groups are too low or too high you adjust your sights to compensate how YOU see the centre of the target. We do not need aiming points to make the game easier. There was nothing wrong with action pistol rules before they were dicked around with. It was a lack of commitment by the NRA [who OWN it] to market it in a shooting world where we have never had so much choice what to shoot. Every time we have a break away group we have another game to play and the same number of shooters are spread a bit thinner. If you get more shooters to shoot AP worldwide you will get more shooters at the cup. As a non-resident alien [bATF terminoligy for visiting shooters] we are not full members of the NRA so we cannot dictate how you play the game in your own backyard.But it is not the only game and it is not the only backyard. As Big Dave says AP is not only shot in MO. it is shot worldwide but the NRA don't even think of that. They only think of the Cup.

That's my 2 cents worth! But if you still haven't got the message:- It is not the rules of the game that need changing, It is who owns the game.

IC

[Allgoodhits]

.... As a non-resident alien [bATF terminoligy for visiting shooters] we are not full members of the NRA so we cannot dictate how you play the game in your own backyard.But it is not the only game and it is not the only backyard. ...  That's my 2 cents worth! But if you still haven't got the message:- It is not the rules of the game that need changing, It is who owns the game.

IC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps you have landed on something important....accidently. "We are not full members of the NRA...". I don't know all of the NRA's membership rules, but could you belong? Your comment leads me to believe that one in your position does not have to belong. IF, this is true then I suggest that those in that category join the NRA. Then their comments to the NRA regarding their operation of their matches could start with "As an NRA Member and competitive shooter in AP....."

Personally, I think anyone who participates regularly in an NRA sanctioned match should belong to the NRA.....period. If you shoot other than the token first IDPA match one must belong to IDPA, and I believe the same is true for USPSA, Steel Challenge and most others. The NRA puts a lot of money out each year, the least one could do is join the organization, if they are permitted to within the membership rules and guidelines. "No join, no complain".

This does not mean that I am a fan of all that the NRA does, but simply a statement about criticising an organization of how their rules effects someone who participates but does not belong. Again this is conditional on being able to join, just electively choosing not to.

Join the NRA, support it, then criticize it and it's operation of matches that you shoot under their rules. Because then and only then do you deserve the right. I exercise my right frequently.

The NRA is a bureacracy and they respond to constituents. Just as the politician does not want to hear one's complaint unless they are a registered voter in their district. Not an ideal world, but kinda the way it is.

MJ

NRA Benefactor Member

[Kimberkid]

Martin,

With all respect, I gotta disagree. Lets take a look at how well they listen to the current membership. If they listened to half of what the shooters wanted, none of this stuff would be happening. Also, the whole idea of "must join after the first match" is a great way to keep people from coming back. I have heard that at numerous IDPA matches and never once at a USPSA match. The shooters that shoot but dont join still pay a match fee and usually a higher one. Also, more shooters does not cost IDPA or USPSA or NRA any more money. All these organizations make money, not lose it. Uncle Bill isnt emptying his own pockets just so we can all learn to be tactical.

Also, I will critisize any retarded rule I feel like. I dont have anything to do NASCAR, but if some lawyer suggests they limit themselves to a 3 gallon gas tank or dont drive over 55mph, I'm gonna say how stupid it is. I would be coming from a backround of zero knowledge, so if people wanna ignore my opinion, fine, but I still have a right to say it.

If I was a foriegn shooter that didnt belong to the NRA, I sure as hell wouldnt join.

[Action Pistol Shooter]

I'm mad as hell with the rule changes made over the years! I've been shooting this game for over 10 years and have seen it go downhill severely. Every time they make a change it does not help. This should give them an idea that what they are doing is wrong and ask the current competitive shooter in the sport what they would like to see and then get feedback on it before making a change. Don't just emply there is over 1200 registered shooters and we only got a responce from 100 so this is not the majority speaking out on the changes. You have to look at the current active shooters comments and what they would like. Don't disregaurd what we have to say because you think we are the minority of the group. It always seems amazing to me that we can have so many new competitors shoot the Cup each year and our numbers don't grow because of the competitors that won't shoot our game again after changes are made. If they did not like the game they would not have shot it in the first place, so I fell like we are running off our competitors. IE: (rules changes)

When the stock class was told they could not touch the Barricades or go prone until the 50 yard line I felt this was a bad deal for them but I didn't hear anyone complain. The next thing I know is now someone has put a bug in the NRA's ear to make in open class and everyone has to stand until the 50 yard line. The shooting should be freestyle just the way it was intended to be no matter what type of gun you shoot. Put restrictions on the guns used in each catagory, open or metallic, not the way the competitor shoots it, and not how many lbs. the trigger pull is. Open class should be exactly what it sounds like! Open to what you feel will help you as long as it is safe. Be inovative!

Now we are talking about putting a black 4" dot for the X ring! Why? The game was setup to make you find center mass without any markings. If I wanted to shoot a target with a black center I would shoot bullseye or ppc. This is not what I wanted to shoot then and it is not what I want to shoot now but they are trying to make me start shooting the other games and leave this one.

Somehow we need to get back to the way the game was before all the changes. I will close for now and hope that I didn't offend anyone. I just needed to say something about what is happening to the game I loved at one time.