Action Pistol Rules Committee

[dnelson]

I think I just added the Official Results for the Cup, sent to me by Rudy.  It's 96 pages long so think about sending it to your printer. I've never added an attachment to any response on this forum so it may not work.  If it doesn't work you can mail me and I'll forward it.

dn

P.S.  After previewing this, the site won't allow it.  Send me an email and I'll forward it to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just sent a response to myself, it's not user friendly.

My email address is:

dn44mag@mchsi.com

[dnelson]

I received mail from Rudy today and would like to pass it along, but I'm not able to attach it. Its a summery of the AP Committee recommendations and contains items of interest to all of us. Since it's from Rudy, I assume it's offical and I'll be happy to pass it along.

I've sent this information out to my email list so I can only assume that its gone a lot further, which is great. That's what email is all about. Most of you who have an interest should receive it shortly. If not, mail me at

dn44mag@mchsi.com

and I'll forward it to you. I'll try to attach it again, but doubt that it will work.

Dan

P.S. - it didn't work so mail me if you didn't get it. It doesn' t have the right file extension, not sure what they'd like to have.

[dnelson]

I'm trying again to attach this.

dnAction_Shooting_Rule_changes.txt

[dnelson]

Now you know what I know. You'll have to move back and forth across the screen, but that's OK. Now if I can remember how I did this.

dan

[dnelson]

I've just mailed the NRA requesting a common email address for the Board of Directors who will be saying yes or no regarding the AP Committee recommendations. We have lots of time before they vote in January 2006, but we need to let our opinions known to elected officials. As elected officals they should be accessible to the membership. We'll see what the response is. It should be positive.

dn

[Action Pistolero]

I wouldn't count on it. I think you'd get better results talking to a brick wall. We were told by a member of the committee that he would not go to the rules committee with anything less than 2 pounds. This was after the NRA lawyer explained to us that all we needed to do was set a baseline. A board member then brought up a motion to make that baseline at 1 pound. That was when the joker came up with his crap and we ended up at 2.

[GrantJ]

Apparently this "Person" must have some influence. Had I been on the committee I would have read this as---e the riot act. He is there to express the will of the committee not his own f-----g agenda. If the committee had recommend a 1# limit it would be his job to push that to the enth degree, because that is his job! Personal preference has nothing to do with the end result. Am I pissed? You had better believe it!

[gm iprod]

And rightly so.

What are the chances of the baseline becoming the stepping point for an early increase. Once you have the wedge in the door, it is real easy to knock it in (or in this case UP) a notch.

These guys are starting to use the same tactics as the anti-gun faction. This is not on.

Just FYI, I shoot with a 2lb trigger (actually 1kg) but that's the point, I have a choice. If you want to shoot with a trigger a fly's fart will set off, go for it.

Name of the individual required. If he / she is preparred to dictate terms then we need to know who!!!!

[dnelson]

Dear Dan: We have 4 " tan pasters in stock to match the current cardboard target. We cannot provide a 4 " black paster without a large firm order to justify the tooling cost to make a new product. Please let me know how many you would purchase.

Also, the Pistol Committee should talk with a target manufacturer like us before making any changes. It will be almost impossible to manufacture a target that has both perforated scoring lines and a painted center, and keep within the needed specifications. You will need to have all painted scoring lines, or all perforated lines.

Please call if you would like to discuss further. Thanks much.

Dave Zimmerman, President, Target Barn, Inc. 419 829-2242

I'd like to thank Dave for his input. After reviewing the recommendations, it appears the black X-ring will be followed by a black 8 ring. Note the 12" note on the recommendations. That would make the target a black 4" center and a 2" eight ring. All of that could be printed in plain cardboard without perforations. But according to Dave Zimmerman - you can't have both printed and perforations. This makes the AP target unique and may not be able to used by other disciplines.

The price of targets could kill us.

Dan

[dnelson]

We tried the black X-ring, only painted 6 or 7 too many. If approved, the black on cardboard will make it EXTREMELY difficult to find double or triples or define the center of the bullet for those shots close to the scoring ring. Black on paper may be easier, no experience, but on cardboard it may be a critical error if that is approved. Too many competitors shoot too many X's. We often use the light lead marking on the target to help find the doubles or the center of impact. . Can't see that on black. My understanding to date is that the recommendation will be for a black four inch center, no problem, and a black 8 ring - potential problem.

This is just my observation. We had no complaints about the black x-ring. Am I right about the recommendation? Black center and 8 ring?? I don't like it, but will live with it.

Dan

[Action Pistolero]

Dan,

I have no idea where you heard about a black 8 ring but this is the first that I have heard of it. The proposal is to make the X ring black only. As I stated in an earlier post I spoke to Dave in June about any potential problems and he informed me of the same as you got from him. I believe the best way to do it is to have the rings printed in black although I am told that this will still require two operations therefore would increase the price of the target. In my opinion, this is a dead issue only because it will require some research from a certain party and I have no confidence that the research will be accomplished.

Kevin

[Allgoodhits]

Dan,

I have no idea where you heard about a black 8 ring but this is the first that I have heard of it. The proposal is to make the X ring black only. As I stated in an earlier post I spoke to Dave in June about any potential problems and he informed me of the same as you got from him. I believe the best way to do it is to have the rings printed in black although I am told that this will still require two operations therefore would increase the price of the target. In my opinion, this is a dead issue only because it will require some research from a certain party and I have no confidence that the research will be accomplished.

Kevin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kevin and others,

Why do we only hear from Kevin? I'm sure it is too much to ask of the non-AP shooters on the NRA AP Committee to respond from time to time, but aren't there two other prominent AP shooters on the AP committee? It would be refreshing to hear their comments from time to time.

Kevin,

We need to make sure that we are talking about the same thing. For clarity, are we talking about the X "ring" in black, or the entire X "scoring area" in black? If any decision is made, it must be clear as to precisely what is intended. Especially when targets are manufactured. We do not need another ambiguous interpretation in the NRA Rule Book.

MJ

[Alan550]

Martin,

As I understand it, originally the X scoring zone was to be changed to all black. That got passed over due to cost, so now the proposal is to make the scoring "rings" visible by having them "printed" in black and leave the X scoring area as is, i.e. brown. Even that seems to be out the window what with the lack of research (or should that read lack of interest) that Kevin mentioned. I still say they're trying to kill AP, since there was a mention of a 1# trigger that got shot down immediately in favor of a 2# rule that probably won't make it past the main NRA Rules Committee. I fully expect that committee to go with 3# or maybe more.

Alan~^~

[Allgoodhits]

Martin,

  As I understand it, originally the X scoring zone was to be changed to all black.  That got passed over due to cost, so now the proposal is to make the scoring "rings" visible by having them "printed" in black and leave the X scoring area as is, i.e. brown.  Even that seems to be out the window what with the lack of research (or should that read lack of interest) that Kevin mentioned.  I still say they're trying to kill AP, since there was a mention of a 1# trigger that got shot down immediately in favor of a 2# rule that probably won't make it past the main NRA Rules Committee.  I fully expect that committee to go with 3# or maybe more.

  Alan~^~

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan,

I knew of the scoring zone, then I started seeing [reading] of language that made me believe otherwise, i.e the rings. I would think that the "rings" on cardboard would have to be pretty "thick" to make any difference.

Man, are the NRA Hunter Pistol Silhouette folks going to be pi$$ed when their triggers go from 3-6oz to multiple lbs like the AP guys and gals. At least we start with our guns pointing down. Those HPS guys point their guns in the blue sky then on target.

AP Shooting is S.A.F.E. Safe Accurate Fast Efficient It's those slow shooting, slow thinking f_____ers we need to be concewrned about.

MJ

[GrantJ]

Amen to that.

We tried black centers in the weekend, I must admit it was really good once I stopped looking at the damn thing. We did figure that it would make it more difficult for the scorers though as finding doubles would be much harder, and they already have problems with that one.

I talked to Rudy today to get his input and he said it was in the hands of those that organize the targets. He did not elaborate more than that.

Here is the deal. The target has to be die cut, that means it is stamped out in a one hit operation. If we need to print on it, that is another process altogether. It is not possible to use a combination of perforated scoring zones and printed zones and achieve the accuracy required to meet the target specifications.

If this is to be done, I would suggest that we do away with the perforations and print the X and 8 scoring zones. I would also recommend that a group of samples be prepared using different colors to ensure that it works for the shooters and also the officials. If it has to be done, do it once and do it right.

In all honesty, I feel that this is the committees way (with a few exceptions) of giving in a little to the competitors, a feel good deal. The short answer is "if it aint broke don't fix it!" The only possible outcome that I can see is more X's and increased target costs.

GrantJ

[dnelson]

4.2 Precision Target Events - Add black dots to Fig. 1 (4" X ring) and Fig. 2 (1.12" X ring) art work. This is from the Committee report link.

I guess, in error, I thought Fig. 2 pertained to the 8 point zone. Rudy mailed me and said that only the 4" center is being considered. He has one made up and referred to it as a "bulls eye and action pistol" target having an excellent aiming point. But he also describes it as a 4" X-ring. As Martin brought up, we need a clarification of what is being recommended. All of this does NOTHING POSITIVE without the correct information. Does anyone know what Fig. 2 (1.12" X ring) refers to? After second thoughts on the issue, it may apply to the indoor target.

I've never seen or used an indoor target, but know it does exist.

"Black dots" (see above) would indicate a solid black 4" center on the D-1 target. I think that is what was requested. Right Kevin? If the perforations were changed to fine black lines then that would or could take the position of the sun out of play and level the field. So to speak.

AP was never intended to have a defined center, the scoring rings were intended to be invisable and I'd personally like to leave the target alone. Grant is making an overlay for us to use at our next match, late August. We plan to paint the scoring lines and see how it looks and get opinions from our competitors. Painted lines meaning lightly sprayed with black paint. We'll let you know how it turns out.

Bottom line is that any change in the target will drive cost up. Has anyone ask what this might cost us? I haven't. AP is more than a late May event.

Dan

[Action Pistolero]

Dan,

I believe that you are right. The 1.12" X ring is for the indoor target.

The 4" black X ring is what came out of the committee. After I talked to Dave at the Target Barn I started suggesting the scoring rings be black.

I was pushing this to try to level the playing field. I realize that the scoring rings were meant to be invisible. As we all know this isn't the case in certain lighting conditions. I believe that IPSC targets are supposed to be the same way but only the first shooter sees them as they are meant to be. After that the pasters point to the center.

Kevin

[dnelson]

Thanks for the response Kevin. I think I have the new target in my mind correctly now. I know there are a lot of competitors who like and dislike this recommedation. I don't care for it, but can live with it. Cost is a major factor in my opinion and I haven't heard any estimates to date. GV buys the standard target and uses them for a number of disciplines and training classes. Having the target unique is not a positive thing. Others may not like it. Pasters will have to be black and biege. I guess the list could go on and on. Yours or someone's response indicated that the target change may be a dead issue due to cost. That may not be the case.

From emails I've received from Rudy this week, this is still a proposal that will be voted on. In one of my earlier mails, I suggested contacting the Board of Directors who will ultimately vote on this issue. Rudy would not, could not, disclose those addresses. I expected that, but Rudy did state that all opinions sent to him would be forwarded to the AP Chairman who will be addressing the Board of Directors.

You have a way to voice your opinion so go for it.

rudy dufour

E-mail Address(es):

RDufour@nrahq.org

This information is correct to the best of my knowledge, Dan

[BigDave]

Excuse me? We, the paying, voting members of the NRA cannot contact the people who are making the decisions that effect the sport we participate in? Tell me you are kidding!

Leave the targets alone. Leave the triggers alone. When and if we get a rash of 1920/192's then consider a change to the target or COF. We already have rules about unsafe firearms. Enough is enough.

[Kimberkid]

Dave,

I knew there was a reason I liked you.

[BigDave]

Here is the exchange that Rudy and I had this morning...

Mr. Dufour

Thank you for your rapid response to my inquiry.

If you do not mind, please forward me a copy of your

policy which states that the contact information for

the discipline chairman is not available to

competitors.  I trust that in this age of electronic

media and e-mail that my request will not be too

difficult for your to accomidate. 

As I am certain you are aware, there is some rather

heated debate surrounding some of the proposed

changes, specifically the trigger pull weight issue.

I and others I know would like to voice our opinions

personally to the chairman and other members of the

committee.  While I understand that we can forward our

opinions to you, I believe it would be most

expeditious to direct our concerns over the current

state and future of Action Pistol directly to the

individual committee members.

Thank you,

Dave Pluimer

Indianapolis, IN

and his reply

Mr. Pluimer,

Which Board Chairman's name and address are you

wanting? The Action Shooting Chairman's name

and address is in the Program and Results Bulletin.

If the comments and concerns are for the Action Shooting

Committee, then all agenda items (mail or e-mail) will

be sent to the Secretary of the Committee (me). I will then

present them to the committee (Action Shooting).

If the comments and concerns are for the Competition

Rules Committee, the agenda items (mail or e-mail) can

be sent to the Chairman of the Action Shooting Committee

he can then have then available for that meeting.

My position stops at the Action Shooting Committee.

I hope that helps.

Rudy

Rudy Dufour

Program Coordinator

Action Pistol

703.267.1478

1.800.672.3888 #1478

Bianchicup@nrahq.org

[BigDave]

Mike - thank, you too, pal

I downloaded the results bulleting off of the NRA website, but I didn't see the names or addresses. If anyone has this, could you please post the information here or PM me with it?

[Allgoodhits]

Excuse me?  We, the paying, voting members of the NRA cannot contact the people who are making the decisions that effect the sport we participate in?  Tell me you are kidding!.....

..... Enough is enough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting, the NRA often sends me preprinted postcards to send to local, state and national politicians, yet they are close fisted about their own secret society.

If all else fails, start at the top!

Sandra Froman, President

National Rifle Association

11250 Waples Mill Road

Fairfax, VA 22030

..... ask her if it is not too much trouble to please forward to all members of the NRA's Board of Directors. Future votes and memberships may count on it.

In one of the upcoming issues of AMERICAN RIFLEMAN and the others there should be a list of the Directors by name. You could write to them by name C/O NRA at the Waples Mill Rd address.

MJ

[Rob Boudrie]

Voting for NRA directors is not an effective mechanism for change. The NRA publishes a list of recommended votes, and those endorsed candidates are all but assured of winning.

[GrantJ]

Nice try Dave. It is pointless sending submissions on our current woe's to the Chairman of AP and expect him to pass them on to the Rules Committee. It just wont happen. If you were at the Q&A meeting at the "Cup" this year you will know exactly where he stands!

We need to send copies of all our submission to the individual members of this committee so they have the true story. If we are not able to get the contact details, the only thing left to do is send it all to the President. I she gets enough correspondence from the competitors may be the heat will get turned up on those down stream.

GrantJ