Frieday Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 I have been shooting BBI for about a year now. They had been working great for me for a while. Recently during matches, I had been noticing my longer distance shots had been way off my point of aim. At first I chalked it up to me failing to call my shot. But it started happening more and more. And I was confident that I really was calling my shots well. So I headed to the range in search for answers. I set a target out at 7 yrds, and fired 6 shots from bench rest. The grouping was decent. I then moved the target out to 15 yards and fired 6 shots. The grouping wasn't horrible and I had one shot go high. Then I moved the target out to 25 yards and fired 6 shots. The results made me say "WTF mate?". All way high and spread out alot. I then tried out some Bayou's I had loaded up similar to the BBI load. I fired 6 shots at 25 yards. These results were satisfactory, and led me to believe my BBI loads were the issue, and not the gun. I have listed the loads I was shooting and the images from the range. Has anyone else noticed any problems with BBI bullets? I just placed an order for 160gr Bayou's instead of my usual BBI order because of these results. LOAD 1 Black Bullets International 135gr-RN 4.2gr BE-86 1.12" OAL 977 FPS LOAD 2 Bayou 147gr-FP 3.6gr BE-86 1.10" OAL 885 FPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Because of random probability, I like to see larger groups - more shots fired. I usually fire 10 - 15 rounds and knock out the 3-4 flyers (like your high flyer at 15 yards) and measure the group size and center. I also like to test at 20-25 yards for accuracy. It's possible that Your gun prefers heavier bullets (147's) ... Good luck with your Quest ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 EVERY gun shoots EVERY bullet differently. You have to experiment with load development quite a bit before you write off a particular bullet or weight. You have to change oal, charge weight and maybe even tweak crimp to various degrees to see what a particular gun likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B_RAD Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 (edited) Did I miss where you said what gun your shooting? If it's got a short chamber and you're loading too long, maybe that's causing issues? Edited March 12, 2017 by B_RAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 LOT of variables ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 I'd think you just need to adjust your sights on the BBI. Two different bullets with two different loads usually won't shoot the same POA/POI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frieday Posted March 12, 2017 Author Share Posted March 12, 2017 Sorry. The gun is an STI Spartan9. To clarify, I have been shooting this 135gr BBI load for about a year in this gun with good accuracy. Its only recently I have been noticing these issues. The only thing I can think of, if its nothing to do with the bullets, is that around christmas I started loading on a 650 instead of my lee progressive. So it was a whole new set up with new dies. Even though I maintained the same OAL and crimp, maybe something else is going on. Maybe I should try loading the 135gr BBI on my lee, like I was before, and see if the accuracy improves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncie21 Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Yep, someone summed it up earlier; 'lots of variables'. And now there's a multitude more, due to the different press and changes in die settings. All this makes for some interesting times ahead. Let us know how this ends...and best of luck- truly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missed it by that much Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Nothing beats a Lee[emoji41] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Revist your crimp and belling. I to would be unhappy with that group size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frieday Posted March 14, 2017 Author Share Posted March 14, 2017 UPDATE: I pulled apart my belling/flare dies from both my Lee and Dillon to compare. The Lee die actually belled the brass to a larger diameter by a few thou. Forgive me, I didn't record the measurements. The thought being that the Dillon die was not belling the brass to as large ID as the Lee die was, resulting in a compressed bullet during seating. Cause for concern?? In an effort to improve the accuracy of the rounds loaded on the Dillon, I increased the bell/flare by a large amount. So much that some brass was splitting during flaring. This was in attempt to get a larger ID, deeper in the brass. I loaded about 100 like this and shot them today(Same BBI 135gr load). The results are definitely improved accuracy. My hits are still high the farther the distance. But I am maxed on my rear sight elevation adjustment, and will need to install a taller front sight to get back into the adjustment range of the rear sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preeber Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 I have been shooting them for several years and have seen no problem. However with that said, if you run the ballistics through a software simulator you will find that our long shots are not long enough to have much impact on a 9mm (wind, bullet weight variance, normal powder load variance, etc). As I recall when I did the simulations a 50ft per second drop in velocity resulted in a 2 tenths of an inch drop at 20 yrds. Bottom line, once you dial in your sights for your load it is typically going to be the shooter that is causing the issue. If you listen to the Ben Stoeger POD cast he has said the same thing many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncie21 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 OP, for grins put a lee sizing die (leave the rest, which I believe are Dillons) on your tool head and see what happens. P.S. I'd wager that the BBI cartridge you posted a pic of earlier was made with your Dillon dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 lube your cases. grab a bunch of cases and measure them. 9mm varies quite a bit in length, find one in the middle of the case length to set the bell. this way the shorter ones still get some bell and the longer ones a little more. Set bell to .380/381. crimp to .378/9. the 9mm is a tapered case and your over belling it will result in less tension to hold the bullets in resulting in bullet setback. try this and tell us the results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frieday Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 UPDATE: Alright guys. I got some Bayou 160gr, and a Lyman M die. A friend of mine that has been reloading and casting his own bullets since before I was born recommended the M die. It's kind of a pain to use on the 650. I ended up running all my brass through resize/deprimer first, and then put the M die is station 1. I loaded a few different loads before settling on this one to achieve reliability and PF. Bayou 160gr-RN 3.1gr BE-86 1.15" OAL 818 FPS I also just purchased a DW PM-9 and shot this same load to compare. (Freaking awesome gun btw. The DW is going to be my primary with the spartan as back up.) As of right now I am satisfied with the grouping of this load in both guns. When I get some time, I will revisit the Black Bullets. I just don't have the time right now before the match season begins. STI Spartan STI 7 yards STI 15 yards STI 25 yards DW PM-9 DW 7 yards DW 15 yards DW 25 yards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOA1911 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Frieday, speaking of the Dan Wesson PM9, I have one that I purchased many years ago, and it will out shoot all my other 9mm 1911s and 2011s with exception of my Guncrafter No Name Commander. The former is an absolute gem, but the later is freakishly accurate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 12 hours ago, Frieday said: UPDATE: Alright guys. I got some Bayou 160gr, and a Lyman M die. A friend of mine that has been reloading and casting his own bullets since before I was born recommended the M die. It's kind of a pain to use on the 650. I ended up running all my brass through resize/deprimer first, and then put the M die is station 1. I also just picked up an M die in 9mm. Also running it in a 650 with the Dillon expander set to just barely give a bell, not enough to even consider. I run my M die in station 3 with a big caveat. I had to grind off the end of the expander plug a good long ways because there is no room for the expander in the case if there is powder in it. I'm pretty sure it would also tell you real quick if you missed a Ammoland or FM stepped case in your sorting because I think it would bottom out in it. The webs are considerably thicker on those and the expander plug looked to basically fill the case at depth, or very close to it. I just ground it until it's a few thousandths shorter than the Dillon in station 2, then re-ground a nice sized radius and polished it up with a cotton fob and jewelers rouge on a Dremel. Good to go now. They have a couple of different ones, I have the "AP" part numbered die. I'm wondering now if the other is longer and would work better in the 650. The "AP" die is just barely long enough to work but it will. It would be nice if they made the die body a bit longer. I'm a firm believer in M dies for lead bullets. I haven't shaved a single bullet in .45 since going to them. I didn't have to grind the .45 die either. Hmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frieday Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 On 3/20/2017 at 3:20 AM, Shadowrider said: I also just picked up an M die in 9mm. Also running it in a 650 with the Dillon expander set to just barely give a bell, not enough to even consider. I run my M die in station 3 with a big caveat. I had to grind off the end of the expander plug a good long ways because there is no room for the expander in the case if there is powder in it. I'm pretty sure it would also tell you real quick if you missed a Ammoland or FM stepped case in your sorting because I think it would bottom out in it. The webs are considerably thicker on those and the expander plug looked to basically fill the case at depth, or very close to it. I just ground it until it's a few thousandths shorter than the Dillon in station 2, then re-ground a nice sized radius and polished it up with a cotton fob and jewelers rouge on a Dremel. Good to go now. They have a couple of different ones, I have the "AP" part numbered die. I'm wondering now if the other is longer and would work better in the 650. The "AP" die is just barely long enough to work but it will. It would be nice if they made the die body a bit longer. I'm a firm believer in M dies for lead bullets. I haven't shaved a single bullet in .45 since going to them. I didn't have to grind the .45 die either. Hmmm.... Good info. Thanks. I have the powder checker in station 3 right now. I like having it just for piece of mind. One thing I'm noticing is that I'm still getting a little bit of lead shaving during bullet seating every 10 rounds or so. I am not sure whats causing it. I have the M die set to a maximum depth without really flaring out the case. And I'm trying to set the bullet on the case as concentric as possible. Would this be a cause for concern on accuracy? It's not very much lead at all. I'll snap some pictures later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncie21 Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Frieday said: One thing I'm noticing is that I'm still getting a little bit of lead shaving during bullet seating every 10 rounds or so. Noticed this on one of my 9mm tool heads recently too. Subscribing to hear what others think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frieday Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 Here are some images of my process. You can see the M die doing its job. I think I have a good enough flare on the cases. You can see the amount of lead that is being shaved. It is only on one side of the bullet. And it doesn't seem to matter how I set the bullet on the case. Like I said before, It's not doing this to every round. What should I do different to avoid this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 What you are doing to that bullet is likely causing your accuracy problems. I'd guess that your die isn't exactly over the case and is causing the bullet to tip. You might try loosening the die in the tool head and running it up and see if it centers itself better. Also see if the shape of the bullet you are using fits in the part of the die that contacts it. One other thing could be that the bullet itself is not round, Measure around a few of them in 4 or 5 spots and see if you get the same measurement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDA Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) I tried Lee dies one time on my XL650 and I couldn't seat a coated bullet without scraping like you show. I about tore my hair out trying to figure out what was going on. I found that the Lee seating die was removing the belling as it slid over the case mouth. I switched the seating die to a Dillon die and have never had a shaving problem again. I compared the two dies and the bore in the Lee die was barely larger than the case outside diameter. Try sizing and belling a case and then measure the bell. Then run the case through the seating die and then measure the bell after seating to see if your die is closing it up. Edit: I just checked and the Lee seating die measures .381" and a completed round I just checked measures .3785", so it didn't make any difference how much you belled the case, the seating die removed the belling as soon as it touched the case mouth. That was my first and last experience with Lee dies... Edited March 23, 2017 by TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) That could be the case, TDA. My 650 works phenomenally with coated bullets in 9mm. I run a Lee sizing die with the hardened aftermarket recapping pin. Dillon Flaring, then powder check in stations 2 & 3. Dillon seating die in 4. Lee Factory Crimp die (FCD) in the final station. After experimenting with various combinations of Lee, Dillon, and Redding? This is my favorite for 124-150gr coated bullets in 9mm. Edited March 23, 2017 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncie21 Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I wonder if the issue with the Lee die is because some of their seating dies also can be adjusted to crimp.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Phan Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Get this: https://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/MrBulletFeeder-by-DAA-Powder-Funnel-for-Pistol-P2708.aspx It flares more of the mid area of the brass, and not over flares the mouth. Fix the lead shavings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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