Death of team SIG Mark & the collapse of this subforum

[R34PER]

So did the death of team SIG and the P320 vapor ware Target model/GreyGuns triggers kill the SIG subforum?

Im pretty disappointed that I invested so much on the SIG platform for competition shooting only to have all the support seemingly dropped and the community to become a ghost town.

[Al Capizzo]

It certainly seems like there has been more disappointment than positive activity coming from Sig lately.  It certainly seems like once P320 sales numbers got to where Sig was struggling to fill orders, they dumped what brought them to that point.   So it seems. 

 

[Pistolpete9]

Sig has a bit of a history of promising the moon on new products and then dumping them quickly thereafter.  The P250 crowd was told that their pistol would be THE polymer Sig going forward...that lasted about 6 months.  The 556 was going to be THE rifle, then the 516, then the 556xi, and now the MCX.  Not sure that Sig is really about keeping a solid line running as much as they are about getting people to buy into something quickly and then moving on before the crowd realizes that the new product isn't the perfection they thought it would be. Sig is kind of the anti-Glock over the last several years.  Unfortunately, it seems like Ruger has taken a page from their book and is already dumping the SR series for a less likable gun.

If you want steady support, you have to stick to the classics.

[JAFO]

Believe it or not, the Sig subforum did exist before the P320.     There is a lot less activity on several subforums right now, which I kinda thought was more to do with it being winter (in most places).

I'm guessing that whatever announcements, roll-outs, etc Sig has planned are all waiting for SHOT next month.

[PatJones]

Nothing new. You ever try and order parts directly from SIG? It's not unusual for parts to be unavailable, even for something common like P238 grip screws.

SIG does not have the best customer service in the industry, they could learn a lot from Springfield.

[Magsz]

I think that if someone would actually start releasing parts for the damned gun we would see a little more enthusiasm.

I really do like the platform, i think its fantastic but its seven pound factory trigger really hampers it for competition.

I will eat my hat if the GGI kit is ever released.

[MemphisMechanic]

I have to agree with that!

APEX caused a boom in M&P popularity years back.

The two most popular production guns with lacking aftermarket support nowdays would have to be the P320 and the Tanfos...

But at least Partiot Defense is finally making a beautiful Stock II or III trigger a DIY proposition if you aren't afraid of a bit of polishing & fitting with a dremel.

Edited November 16, 2016 by MemphisMechanic

[p7fl]

15 hours ago, Magsz said:

I think that if someone would actually start releasing parts for the damned gun we would see a little more enthusiasm.

 

Exactly why I sold mine. The 320 is genetic dead end.

Edited November 16, 2016 by p7fl
quote

[IDescribe]

Also, the sky is falling.  

[troupe]

I know for a fact that when Sig first came out with the 1911, Sig purchase many parts from two vendors that has supported USPSA for many, many years, only to leave these vendors hanging.

Edited November 19, 2016 by troupe
spelled wrong

[TacticalReload]

On 11/15/2016 at 3:55 PM, PatJones said:

Nothing new. You ever try and order parts directly from SIG? It's not unusual for parts to be unavailable, even for something common like P238 grip screws.

SIG does not have the best customer service in the industry, they could learn a lot from Springfield.

Unfortunately, it does seem like a pattern.  I've been waiting on a warranty part for my P226 for quite some time.  I'm sure not getting the FBI contract threw them for a loop, but that has nothing to do with product support and should, if anything, increase availability of parts / support.  

Everywhere you go on the internet where SIGs are discussed, there are people who are impatiently waiting for something that supposedly was going to come out months (or years) earlier.  The P320 Target, the P220 Legion, etc.... folks are waiting for new products and wondering when they will come out.  Sadly, another trend is that a lot of people don't trust new products from SIG when they first hit the market since they have a tendency to (at least appear to) use early adopters as beta testers.

I love my SIGs (although I never warmed up to the P320 as much as I wanted to), but I'm not all that keen on their business strategy and procedures.  To be fair, Glock -- arguably one of the kings of the competition circuit as far as use is concerned -- doesn't really do anything to support competition guns, either, aside from having a few select sponsored shooters and running very simplistic company sponsored GSSF matches.  (Speaking directly to someone who used to run GSSF indoor matches... I was told that Glock is a real PITA to deal with regarding these matches.)

I know that it's hard for us here to see beyond the competition world, but I believe that most manufacturers don't care all that much about USPSA / IDPA (at least in terms of dedicating resources like time and money).  I'm sure they don't see the investment as producing significant ROI.  Aside form the base pistols, almost all the money spent by competitors goes to the aftermarket; and the general gun-buying public doesn't know anything about even the most prolific of competitive shooters, let alone what guns they use.

Edited November 23, 2016 by TacticalReload

[MemphisMechanic]

...Except that Glock has superb customer service when it comes to warranty.

I've known several competitive shooters who had slides crack or frame lugs shear (at well over 50k rounds) and others who blew a gun up due to reloading negligence and sent them in. All of them were returned fully repaired in under two weeks - no questions asked.

And factory parts are always in stock at literally dozens of online retailers. Including extractors.  

[alma]

The former Team SIG members are still kicking around. I took a bit of a break from posting but at this point I have no hard feelings against SIG and have no plans to go away from the P320 and next season.

The delay in the trigger kits has been frustrating but Bruce has been having the components made now and the is installing them in house, dramatically reducing the wait time. I got a sample of the drop in kit which I installed myself and ran at the MD state match a couple of weeks ago. I can't guess when the drop in kit will be available for DIY but it seems very close. 

On the Target, I think some things have changed. When asked about it lately SIG responds with hints of a P320 X-line that should have some additional features. Hopefully we will learn more at Shot Show but it would be hard to take any projected dates seriously. They have just been so busy working to meet the high demand for P320s. Until then I will be continuing to have fun with the RX among other things. I may even get around to changing my profile picture. 

[Magsz]

Bruce has been having these parts made for what, half a year now?

Are they being forged in Mordor or something?

[saibot]

Just thinking out loud, but I wonder if Bruce is concerned that the drop in kit will cannibalize his business and won't sell them outright, only installing them in house? It would make sense with the time it's taken to get them to market, er, not get them to market. Or perhaps their manufactured on Mars and the shipping times are long...

[IDescribe]

Nah.  His gunsmithing business gets work faster than he can do it, and that's been true since before the 320 existed.  His revenue is limited by the time he has to do the work, not by how much work there is.  The sale of aftermarket parts for one model of pistol isn't going to change that.  However, those aftermarket parts will generate profit for him on pistols he doesn't work on directly.  

[alma]

Bruce doesn't like the backlog and realized some time ago that it's not a good model. He has been working over the last few years on transitioning Grayguns to be more like an Apex, where its parts are sold through multiple vendors and installed by users versus Bruce having to lay hands on everything. 

I know that all of the GGI triggers being supplied for the Legion guns had certainly kept them busy, especially on top of the typical shop workload. There have been a few minor rolling tolerance changes through the last two years as SIG has worked on perfecting its new platform. Those have caused Bruce to go back to the drawing board a few times to assure that he has something that requires no fitting and that will work across all variances encountered. I think that is why he is initially doing the installs of the new trigger components in house. He needs to ensure that what he has works across the board with minimal work, and I assume he is fine tuning as he goes. I think he is close. Two of my guns are new setup with prototype drop in kits (one with a flat trigger and one with the curved) and so far they are working perfectly and feel very good. I think he has stopped giving time estimations for when the kits will be available because he doesn't want to miss another projection, but I think he is very close. Sorry for the delay, it has been frustrating for all involved including Bruce. 

[saibot]

Great info, Alma! Nice to hear some of the details around the delay.

[agwoodard]

Alma, no disrespect intended here, but as an owner of a P320, I'm curious about your comments.   While I understand the Team Sig connection, you seem to be speaking for Gray Guns, so I have to ask, what is your affiliation with them?  Has Gray Guns authorized you to disclose this information, or, is it just conjecture on your part?  Before you go and get offended at my questions, I am acquainted with a couple of guys who used to shoot for Sig.  One is a Grand Master, and I'm not sure of the other, but I can assure you, neither of them is shooting a stock P320 with a 7 1/2 pound trigger, and if I had to bet, I would bet that if either of them had some Gray Guns work done on their pistols, they didn't wait months to have it done either.  I think I would also bet that if you were faced with shooting a stock P320 with that same 7 pound trigger this coming season, you might think twice about it too.  I just find it a bit disingenuous to be pimping a gun that doesn't really have enough after market support for the average USPSA or other action pistol shooter to seriously consider.   I would love to shoot my P320 in USPSA, and might even consider the P320 with the optic, but that 7 to 7 1/2 pound trigger is a deal breaker for anyone above B or C class. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by agwoodard

[alma]

1 hour ago, agwoodard said:

Alma, no disrespect intended here, but as an owner of a P320, I'm curious about your comments.   While I understand the Team Sig connection, you seem to be speaking for Gray Guns, so I have to ask, what is your affiliation with them?  Has Gray Guns authorized you to disclose this information, or, is it just conjecture on your part?  Before you go and get offended at my questions, I am acquainted with a couple of guys who used to shoot for Sig.  One is a Grand Master, and I'm not sure of the other, but I can assure you, neither of them is shooting a stock P320 with a 7 1/2 pound trigger, and if I had to bet, I would bet that if either of them had some Gray Guns work done on their pistols, they didn't wait months to have it done either.  I think I would also bet that if you were faced with shooting a stock P320 with that same 7 pound trigger this coming season, you might think twice about it too.  I just find it a bit disingenuous to be pimping a gun that doesn't really have enough after market support for the average USPSA or other action pistol shooter to seriously consider.   I would love to shoot my P320 in USPSA, and might even consider the P320 with the optic, but that 7 to 7 1/2 pound trigger is a deal breaker for anyone above B or C class. 

I can't speak directly for Grayguns but because I have been working with Grayguns over the past two years I am sharing with you what I have picked up either directly from Bruce, from various posts or interviews, or from my direct observations. Take it or leave it. 

I began the 2015 season shooting a stock P320 that I purchased personally from a local pawn shop. That stock P320 took me through the first several months until I got one with Bruce's trigger work. In that time I didn't feel incredibly disadvantaged; however, I obviously prefer the platform post GGI trigger work. Mason Lane actually earned his M card shooting a bone stock P320. I am a mid to low level M so there is no danger of me walking away with anything major but I still prefer the P320 to the CZ ACCU that I shot prior to the CZ or the Glocks I shot before that. 

While the drop in kits have not been available yet there are plenty of people outside of the formal "Team SIG" that have sent their guns into Grayguns for the trigger work. Aside from trigger options other aftermarket support has been quite prevalent for the P320. There have been plenty of frustrations about timing from SIG or GGI with regards to the P320 platform, but I don't feel it's disingenuous to share either my experiences or observations with other shooters who are interested in the platform. 

[Magsz]

All of this comes back to the fact that if you want a 320 that is "ideal" for competition you have to shell out a relative fortune for it to be custom worked on by one dude who wont give up control.

I have the utmost respect for Bruce but there are a ton of people out there making truck loads of money off of parts and pieces sales while still maintaining a high degree of quality with their parts.

Its not really my place to speak poorly about anyone else's business practices as this is America and anyone can do as they see fit but I really do believe that if you plan on releasing something either confirm its coming and stick to it or keep your mouth shut.  The 320 has been hyped up beyond belief and so far, EVERYONE Is failing to deliver, including Sig.

I have held off on buying more 320's because of the possibility of a release of the 320 Target.  Had I not known about the Target I would have bought two more 320's by now.  That right there is called stupid business decisions on the part of Sig.

[alma]

I can't argue with any of that. I am actually surprised that no one else has taken a stab at aftermarket trigger parts except for that Apex flat trigger. SIG and GGI had some great momentum on a great gun and the delays have certainly put a damper on that. I sincerely hope that things get rectified soon but will look at future release dates with a healthy dose of skepticism until product actually hits shelves. At least the RX finally dropped. Here's hoping for the X320 next season. 

[gavagai]

Before this thread I had made a snarky post aimed at Sig which I don't regret, but that certainly wasn't directed your way. It was always interesting to hear your play-by-plays, even if it didn't turn out the way we had all hoped.

58 minutes ago, alma said:

I began the 2015 season shooting a stock P320 that I purchased personally from a local pawn shop. That stock P320 took me through the first several months until I got one with Bruce's trigger work. In that time I didn't feel incredibly disadvantaged; however, I obviously prefer the platform post GGI trigger work. Mason Lane actually earned his M card shooting a bone stock P320. I am a mid to low level M so there is no danger of me walking away with anything major but I still prefer the P320 to the CZ ACCU that I shot prior to the CZ or the Glocks I shot before that. 

Sure would be interesting to have you elaborate on your preference for the 320. The thread could do with some sunshine.

25 minutes ago, alma said:

I am actually surprised that no one else has taken a stab at aftermarket trigger parts except for that Apex flat trigger. SIG and GGI had some great momentum on a great gun and the delays have certainly put a damper on that.

The problem with that, for most readers here I imagine, is Production legality. It's pretty much Bruce (+ Sig) or bust for that - at least for visible changes. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by gavagai

[agwoodard]

1 hour ago, alma said:

I can't argue with any of that. I am actually surprised that no one else has taken a stab at aftermarket trigger parts except for that Apex flat trigger. SIG and GGI had some great momentum on a great gun and the delays have certainly put a damper on that. 

Over on SigTalk you said....

"For a carry type trigger job you can actually install just one of Bruce's triggers (as in the trigger itself without the new sear, sear springs and etc.). That alone drops the pull by about two pounds (similar to the effect of a Glock 3.5lb connector) without affecting the relationship between the sear and striker and while maintaining stock drop safe ratings."

If all I could get was a trigger that would reduce the pull by two pounds, I would buy it, but they don't seem to be available because as you said on SigTalk,

"I guess it's all about who you know. I have two ;-)"   

Here's what this looks like.   Sig hyped the crap out of this gun.  They got some pretty special gun smithing done to the teams guns to give them some serious advantages in matches, and then, when they sold the crap out of them, dumped the team, the gun smith, and ultimately, the people who bought them.   I can't imagine how good this gun would be if it had the Glock name on it.  

 

 

 

 

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[Nick179]

I purchased a sig p320 for uspsa as a new shooter, have an HK VP9 and a glock 19 that I could've used.  I chose the 320 simply based on the feel of it in my hand and the fact that I could "practice" stippling the grip without having to order a new frame for $150 and ship to FFL. I use the standard 7.5# trigger. I went from never shooting a match to B class in production in 4 months. The trigger doesn't bother me. I've shot friends tuned limited guns with sub 2# triggers and I feel I shoot the same, timer doesn't show me a big enough difference to shell out the money and switch platforms. The time I put in everyday dryfire and at the range has made the biggest difference. Hopefully this upcoming season I'll make A class. Time will tell. As for Gray Guns parts, seems like the engineering and time it takes for someone to make a "drop in" trigger kit that joe blow can do in his basement is more complex that I could imagine.  If someone calls for CS, who do they call?  SIG or GG?  Seems GG will have to be ready for that too.  Then the mass production of parts that need to work correctly the first time and every time. From what little interaction I've had with Bruce and some team Sig members, Bruce is a perfectionist.  Which I love. I want my drop in kit to perfect. I don't want a headache and regret for hurrying to get a flawed product. I'll happily shoot my 7# stock trigger and wait for the drop in kit to come out.  As for other small parts seems like springer has that taken care of. Target model definitely won't be announced until after SHOT. If it is announced at all. But I'd say it will be if I was a betting man.