USPSA Nationals Shooting Challenge Difficulty Poll

[WJM]

Just now, bret said:

you seem butt hurt over a 25 yard shot, did you even shoot the stage?

 

Do I have to to form an opinion on whether or not a stage was too difficult?

I know my skills, I know how I would shoot that stage, I know the general skill level of most people, and I know the results. 

Based on that I can decide for myself whether or not a stage would be too difficult for nationals, or any match.

[Sarge]

And this was such a good thread......

[Jake Di Vita]

8 minutes ago, WJM said:

Well, since I didn't specify how I practice SHO and WHO it doesn't really matter. 
 

Well why don't you specify for us then? Does your one handed practice include targets of comparable distance as the standards we're talking about? If it doesn't, then wouldn't it make sense that if you started practicing them more often that you'd become more successful at it? Doesn't sound like luck to me.

9 minutes ago, WJM said:

Suffice it to say that I do practice it a lot, and anyone who doesn't think that a target like that involves some amount of luck has not tried it at that distance.

I think luck is an excuse people like to use when something is harder than they are used to. It makes people feel better that their skills aren't the problem, the stage is the problem. I've shot targets like this before and I don't think luck is much of a factor unless you're closing your eyes and pulling the trigger.

11 minutes ago, WJM said:

If there is no luck involved, it should be based purely on a skill basis, and by definition we should get a large percentage of M's or GM's right?

(of people who cleaned it)

1-M

2-GM
3-M

4-B
5-B
6-A
7-U

8-C
9-B

10-M

So basically of the people who cleaned it, 5 of those would be considered the upper level of our sport. 

The amount of people that cleaned the stage isn't an accurate representation. Earlier someone posted how the average score per class fit right in order with GM being at the top and D being at the bottom. That's still an imperfect analysis but better than number of people shooting the stage clean.

Can you name me more than 5 people that you know practice one handed shooting on targets like this? I bet you can't. I haven't practiced much one handed shooting on targets like this but you can bet I will be doing it more often. If people aren't developing themselves to that level, that doesn't mean the stage is too hard....its just harder than what most people (including myself) can currently handle on demand.

[IronArcher]

Kinda falls into my earlier question. Are we practicing for USPSA matches differently than other majors? If so, why?
If you almost never see a stage like that at other matches, your not training to be the best USPSA shooter, your training to be the best Nationals shooter.
Personally, I'd rather keep them the same thing.


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[ATLDave]

One observation about this thread itself.

Jake's attitude is clearly the better attitude for a shooter to have.  If I'm building a team of shooters, I want them all to have this attitude.  

But I want MD's to be able to ask the questions Cha-Lee is asking.  That's a totally different role than being a competitor and dealing with what is presented and preparing as best you can.  It's just a different mindset.  It's hard to toggle back and forth without one infecting the other.

[WJM]

10 hours ago, Jake Di Vita said:

Well why don't you specify for us then? Does your one handed practice include targets of comparable distance as the standards we're talking about? If it doesn't, then wouldn't it make sense that if you started practicing them more often that you'd become more successful at it? Doesn't sound like luck to me.

I think luck is an excuse people like to use when something is harder than they are used to. It makes people feel better that their skills aren't the problem, the stage is the problem. I've shot targets like this before and I don't think luck is much of a factor unless you're closing your eyes and pulling the trigger.

The amount of people that cleaned the stage isn't an accurate representation. Earlier someone posted how the average score per class fit right in order with GM being at the top and D being at the bottom. That's still an imperfect analysis but better than number of people shooting the stage clean.

Can you name me more than 5 people that you know practice one handed shooting on targets like this? I bet you can't. I haven't practiced much one handed shooting on targets like this but you can bet I will be doing it more often. If people aren't developing themselves to that level, that doesn't mean the stage is too hard....its just harder than what most people (including myself) can currently handle on demand.

I can name 3 shooters that I personally know that practice standards this difficult. Or comparable difficulty.

 

I look at stages like Stage 9 as something like this. Occasionally in practice when I run extremely difficult stages I will have a run or two that completely baffle me. Such as an extremely high HF or an extremely low HF where I didn't appear to do something different.

Statistically they call that randomness. Other people call it luck. To me that's the same reason you see B class and C class shooters beating GM's who practice stuff like this.

[MikeBurgess]

The problem with this stage is not the base shooting challenge itself, the problem is how that challenge was presented within our rules.  Using VC scoring creates a situation where every "bad" shot costs the shooter dearly and in this case it should not have been hard to guess before the match that a Large number of shooters would likely not be capable of making the required shots on demand. As a match director I am not against including HARD shooting challenges (ask anybody that shoots my match) but it is my job to make the challenge one where the lower level shooters will not be overly punished. some of the ways to do that are to use Fixed Time scoring for long range paper, using hard cover in place of  no shoots on mid range paper, limiting the number of "hard" shots on a stage so any penalties from them will be diluted by the "easier" shots, limit the total number of shots on a "hard" stage so the impact on a shooters match from the "hard" shooting challenge is limited. 

In the case of this stage I believe it should have been easy to look at it and know that there is a large portion of USPSA shooters that would not be able to go 1 for 1 on the required shots, therefore choosing Virginia count for the method was a mistake. In my opinion VC scoring should only be used on a stage where the vast majority of our shooters are likely able to make the required shots, that doesn't mean that nobody will get penalties but it does mean that the shooters will earn them.

 

 

 

 

 

[ATLDave]

10 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

In my opinion VC scoring should only be used on a stage where the vast majority of our shooters are likely able to make the required shots, that doesn't mean that nobody will get penalties but it does mean that the shooters will earn them.

This is a really clear articulation of something that seems intuitively right, but that I have never heard expressed before.  I think you may be on to something!  

Edited October 28, 2016 by ATLDave

[ChuckS]

 

11 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

 In my opinion VC scoring should only be used on a stage where the vast majority of our shooters are likely able to make the required shots, that doesn't mean that nobody will get penalties but it does mean that the shooters will earn them

Dare I say it but perhaps  IPSC was wise in eliminating Virginia Count?

[teros135]

18 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

 

Dare I say it but perhaps  IPSC was wise in eliminating Virginia Count?

Not really (for USPSA), but the discussion of limiting it in Stage 9 here makes sense.

[teros135]

27 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

This is a really clear articulation of something that seems intuitively right, but that I have never heard expressed before.  I think you may be on to something!  

Yes.  Nicely stated.

[MikeBurgess]

 

Dare I say it but perhaps  IPSC was wise in eliminating Virginia Count?

Not in my opinion, having all three scoring methods allows stage designers to fit the rule set to the skill they are testing

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[d_striker]

On 10/27/2016 at 7:55 AM, ATLDave said:

This discussion parallels the disputes in the golf world about the U.S. Open setup.  One view is that a national championship should be a grueling, soul-testing event that examines every facet of a player's game and severely punishes any deficiencies.  The contrary view is that, at a certain point, setups become so difficult that randomness begins to exert an outsized influence on outcomes, great players can't display their skill because they're having to stay so conservative, those close to (but not in) the lead cannot make a charge by being aggressive, etc.  While U.S. Opens are still very, very difficult course setups, the USGA has moved away from the ridiculous/arbitrary kind of course setups that dominated in the 90's and early 2000's.  

Now keep in mind that the field of golfers at the U.S. Open golf tournament is comprised ENTIRELY of true-GM-grade players.  There are no B golfers on the course.  Yet the Nationals, like all USPSA tournaments, depends upon the participation (and entry fees) of C and B class chumps to be financially viable.  

The parallel is there but there is one glaring difference.  The US Open field is comprised only of the world's most elite players.  There aren't B, C, and D class players paying the bulk of the match fees like you mentioned.

On the discussion of luck.....Yes, all players are playing the same course but luck definitely comes into play.  A bad bounce, ball sitting up in the rough, ball sitting down in rough, unrepaired spike marks on your line, etc.  I think the same luck comes into play at major matches.  Where is the sun (especially at Universal) when your squad is on that stage?  Perhaps some shooters are shooting on a good weather day while others are shooting in the rain.  The list goes on. 

Edited October 30, 2016 by d_striker

[motosapiens]

virginia count makes sense to me for standards stages where the same targets get engaged on multiple strings, purely to prevent stacking of shots and make scoring easier. I don't see any other point to it except to annoy people.

 

[bret]

On 10/29/2016 at 2:42 PM, d_striker said:

 I think the same luck comes into play at major matches.  Where is the sun (especially at Universal) when your squad is on that stage?  Perhaps some shooters are shooting on a good weather day while others are shooting in the rain.  The list goes on. 

yes the sun comes into play, not everyone can shoot it in the same exact conditions, stage 9 was on the East Side.

there are stages on the west side too.

they are staggered so everyone shooting in the morning goes back and forth as they shoot the match.

I shot AM, PM, AM.

so.I had to deal with the morning sun on 2 match days, I didn't cry about it like the O.P. did and he shot PM, AM, PM, so he only had to deal with the morning sun 1 day.

weather is part of shooting outside, especially in Florida

I am surprised at the amount of but hurt on stage 9, especially by the O.P. and people that didn't even shoot it.

one handed zebra at 25 yards isn't a big deal, I don't hear Bullseye Shooters cry about 1 handed shooting at 50 yards.

[bret]

6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

virginia count makes sense to me for standards stages where the same targets get engaged on multiple strings, purely to prevent stacking of shots and make scoring easier. I don't see any other point to it except to annoy people.

 

Speed And Accuracy.

 

[motosapiens]

20 minutes ago, bret said:

Speed And Accuracy.

 

that has nothing whatsoever to do with virginia count, btw.

[motosapiens]

22 minutes ago, bret said:

one handed zebra at 25 yards isn't a big deal, I don't hear Bullseye Shooters cry about 1 handed shooting at 50 yards.

that's because they do it all the time, so they practice for it.

I personally think uspsa doesn't have enough challenging shots, but it seems like it would make more sense to put them in *all* matches, not just wait until nationals and have shots that most shooters rarely if ever see.

btw, thinking a stage is too hard is not the same as being butt-hurt. It's just an opinion different than yours, and it happens to be an opinion from someone (cha-lee) who has about 50 times your experience both in shooting and in officiating and in administering matches. You can disagree with someone more experienced without being insulting.

[bret]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

that has nothing whatsoever to do with virginia count, btw.

if you are accurate, you don't need extra shots.

[bret]

58 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that's because they do it all the time, so they practice for it.

I personally think uspsa doesn't have enough challenging shots, but it seems like it would make more sense to put them in *all* matches, not just wait until nationals and have shots that most shooters rarely if ever see.

btw, thinking a stage is too hard is not the same as being butt-hurt. It's just an opinion different than yours, and it happens to be an opinion from someone (cha-lee) who has about 50 times your experience both in shooting and in officiating and in administering matches. You can disagree with someone more experienced without being insulting.

3 of the 10 that shot it clean, shoot at the some of the same local matches, so we see this more often.

could be that our local matches are more adequately preparing shooters for these types of shots.

25 yards SHO on a Zebra is not a hard shot, but you can't blaze away at it and expect a hit.

I think Virginia County is a good idea, it cause people to be more accurate or pay the price.

I don't believe I insulted him, he tried to give a guy that ckeaned the stage crap, because he didn't win his class, yet he was 2nd in his Class, the OP was no where near second or even top 10 on his class. and it wasn't because he had Mike's on stage 9.

all stages aren't going to be easy in Nationals. last year the standards stage was harder I think, but not impossible.

[GrumpyOne]

Gentlemen, please watch the attitudes. This means everyone...

[GrumpyOne]

I'm gonna lock this one up for now. If anyone has anything NEW to contribute, pm a moderator and ask for the thread to opened back up.