PCC SWEEPING

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, eddiegunks said:

Who do you guys shoot with?  

Non of my matches see any sweeping from pcc guys. 

That said, kost of my shooters run 3 gun as well so they are used to long guns. 

FWIW i have allowed pcc in my "outlaw" 3 gun matches for years. We are in NY so this helps to get people who do not have. A Pistol permit to come out and play. 

Mostly wannabes from what I'm seeing. We have a few regular pistol shooters who are playing with PCC but the rest are guys I have never seen before.

[Racinready300ex]

18 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Mostly wannabes from what I'm seeing. We have a few regular pistol shooters who are playing with PCC but the rest are guys I have never seen before.

Wannabes doesn't seem like the best thing to call them. If these are shooters you've never seen before, that sounds like those new shooters this division was intended to attract. Probably shouldn't call them names, may not be starting off on the right foot.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Wannabes doesn't seem like the best thing to call them. If these are shooters you've never seen before, that sounds like those new shooters this division was intended to attract. Probably shouldn't call them names, may not be starting off on the right foot.

I was trying to be polite and not call them tactical timmies. They are wannabe operators with knives on their belts, boots, etc.

 

[Flash74]

9 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I was trying to be polite and not call them tactical timmies. They are wannabe operators with knives on their belts, boots, etc.

 

Wannabees?  Tactical timmies? This kind of thinking is exactly whats wrong. "You're different than me me so I will put you down."

 How about new shooters that are an addition to our sport? Isn't this exactly what the f*** we are striving for? Growing practical shooting by offering new and exciting divisions. Seems to be a big win if there are new shooters you have never seen before. 

This weekend I am putting on my boots, grabbing a big old bowie knife, and shooting PCC just to see if I can give any of the old farts a heart attack this weekend. Doubt it will work, folks are pretty tolerant in my neck of the woods.

[IHAVEGAS]

34 minutes ago, Flash74 said:

 

This weekend I am putting on my boots, grabbing a big old bowie knife, and shooting PCC just to see if I can give any of the old farts a heart attack this weekend. Doubt it will work, folks are pretty tolerant in my neck of the woods.

Muzzle a few of them and then start talking about big boy rules, don't know about heart attacks but it should fix the tolerance issue pretty quick. 

[Jadeslade]

 

On 10/5/2016 at 1:23 PM, TonytheTiger said:

I shoot 3 gun primarily, both outlaw and 3GN. I don't consider sweeping with a flagged gun okay, and neither do any of my squadmates. I once ended up on a "big boy rules" squad. I brought the rules infractions to the attention of the MD and was rewarded with bad scoring calls from the RO the rest of the day. I love 3 gun but stupid people can really ruin a match quick.

This is how most experienced shooters feel. I don't like getting swept anywhere. Gun store, range, match. It is just plain bad gun handling. You can pass a loaded Benelli shotgun in a figure 8 between your legs without breaking the 180 or sweeping anyone, including yourself. You can maneuver through a disco with a loaded handgun without sweeping anyone. Learn to handle your weapons. Slings are definitely not needed for PCC in USPSA. Take the rule out. People - learn gun handling skills. Stop arguing about sweeping. It is part of the 4 basic rules we all adhere to and is in a card in every gun sold in America. Learn them.

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Flash74 said:

Wannabees?  Tactical timmies? This kind of thinking is exactly whats wrong. "You're different than me me so I will put you down."

 How about new shooters that are an addition to our sport? Isn't this exactly what the f*** we are striving for? Growing practical shooting by offering new and exciting divisions. Seems to be a big win if there are new shooters you have never seen before. 

This weekend I am putting on my boots, grabbing a big old bowie knife, and shooting PCC just to see if I can give any of the old farts a heart attack this weekend. Doubt it will work, folks are pretty tolerant in my neck of the woods.

Not what USPSA is about though. 

[cnote]

On 10/17/2016 at 11:52 AM, dcloudy777 said:

Just kind of thinking out loud here...

I think a properly placed "clip" or "taco" made of kydex that slipped over the trigger guard would be better than a chamber flag.  Something like this:

 

And a rifle is as "safe" as a holstered handgun.

Not, no no no, chamber flags work fine

Edited November 12, 2016 by cnote

[dcloudy777]

Meh.  Chamber flags suck.  

[TonytheTiger]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

I was trying to be polite and not call them tactical timmies. They are wannabe operators with knives on their belts, boots, etc.

 

I don't give a nutty squirrel turd what people want to wear to a match, but unfortunately the people that fit into the "Timmy" stereotype consistently exhibit some very questionable gun handling technique. Around here they usually get monitored closely until proven competent. Or at least they would, if they ever came to a second match...

[teros135]

23 minutes ago, dcloudy777 said:

Meh.  Chamber flags suck.  

I'm sure there are other venues where one could have fun shooting a carbine. 

[teros135]

2 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

I don't give a nutty squirrel turd what people want to wear to a match, but unfortunately the people that fit into the "Timmy" stereotype consistently exhibit some very questionable gun handling technique. Around here they usually get monitored closely until proven competent. Or at least they would, if they ever came to a second match...

I've been swept a number of times, recently, by USPSA members "trying out" PCC who don't seem to have awareness of the muzzle.  

The holster does seem to have value, in that the gun is held in position and doesn't have to be handled between runs.

[teros135]

8 minutes ago, TonytheTiger said:

I don't give a nutty squirrel turd ...

Gonna have to add that one to the old vocabulary!  

[IHAVEGAS]

7 hours ago, teros135 said:

Gonna have to add that one to the old vocabulary!  

+1 !!

 

[Thomas H]

11 hours ago, Sarge said:

Not what USPSA is about though. 

So now when people are simply shooting according to the rules, we are suddenly talking about the intent of the sport?

Last I knew, USPSA was about shooting.  PCC people are shooting according to the rules.  It is certainly true that when given an influx of new people, calling them names when they are simply doing what is allowed probably isn't going to get you good results.  What cares what they choose to wear?  Are they having fun?  Are they safe?  What else do we need?

Sure, plenty of people who are often characterized as "Tactical Timmies" don't have good gun-handling skills.  Well, neither do the vast majority of people.  And yet, when people come to matches and screw up, don't we try to help them do better?  Are we deciding instead to act like unhelpful @s$es because we don't like the clothes they are wearing?  Seriously?

At our matches, we specifically do NOT designate any berm area for unbagging PCCs, and we don't have long gun racks on every stage.  We tell PCC shooters that given this situation, the PCC stays in the bag and they bring it to the line...and at the end of the stage, their buddy needs to bring up the bag so they can re-bag immediately.  It has worked with no issues at all so far.    And we don't have people walking around sweeping other people with a gun in their hands, nor do we have sling issues.

YMMV, of course, but we've got Open and Limited shooters that take longer to make ready that PCC shooters who are unbagging on the line, so I'm not sure how much of an argument against PCC that is...

[Jadeslade]

Sarge was referring to USPSA at large. And I agree with him. Personalizing to "your match" is awesome. But it means nothing if we want to have a rock solid rule book. It's not hard to have good gun handling and it's not hard to have decorum. If you show up to a match with a penis hat on I'm going to ask you to take it off. This thread is drifting. No sweeping period. Anywhere. It's not a handgun. You want to look at it go to safety area. This is not hard or onerous. No sweeping and no slings.


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[Sarge]

Yeah, I can't keep trying to make my point. It gets old trying to point stuff out and having somebody say you are old, out of touch, etc. I do way too much for shooters and the sport for any of that to be true.

 You would never know that I support PCC and even bought one to add a little variety to shooting Open . But I am slowly shifting back to my very first thought that they don't belong. I think they are a better fit under the multi gun umbrella, or in separate or side matches.

[teros135]

2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Yeah, I can't keep trying to make my point. It gets old trying to point stuff out and having somebody say you are old, out of touch, etc. I do way too much for shooters and the sport for any of that to be true.

 You would never know that I support PCC and even bought one to add a little variety to shooting Open . But I am slowly shifting back to my very first thought that they don't belong. I think they are a better fit under the multi gun umbrella, or in separate or side matches.

There are many who feel that way, Sarge.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

What cares what they choose to wear?  EVIDENTLY IPSC/USPSA CARES BECAUSE YOU CANT WEAR MILITARY STYLE GARB  IN IPSC AND USPSA RULES GIVE MD's THE AUTHORITY TO DEEM WHAT IS INAPPROPRIATE DRESS.

Are they safe?  SOMETIMES , BUT NOT TYPICALLY.

Sure, plenty of people who are often characterized as "Tactical Timmies" don't have good gun-handling skills.  Well, neither do the vast majority of people.  And yet, when people come to matches and screw up, don't we try to help them do better?  

SURE, WITHIN REASON. BUT MANY UNSAFE SHOOTERS WHO WERE EVENTUALLY DQ'ed THANKFULLY MOVED ON TO SOMETHING ELSE. AND GUESS WHAT? I AM GLAD THEY DID.

Are we deciding instead to act like unhelpful @s$es because we don't like the clothes they are wearing?  Seriously? SERIOUSLY, THAT HAS MORE TO DO WITH YOUR NARRATIVE THAN THE MAIN POINT OF THE THREAD. 

At our matches, we specifically do NOT designate any berm area for unbagging PCCs, and we don't have long gun racks on every stage.  We tell PCC shooters that given this situation, the PCC stays in the bag and they bring it to the line...and at the end of the stage, their buddy needs to bring up the bag so they can re-bag immediately.  It has worked with no issues at all so far.    And we don't have people walking around sweeping other people with a gun in their hands, nor do we have sling issues. THATS BECAUSE YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE THE RULES AS WRITTEN. SO, YOU MUST SEE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE PICTURE. 

 

 

[dcloudy777]

18 hours ago, teros135 said:

I'm sure there are other venues where one could have fun shooting a carbine. 

 

Nah... unfortunately the chamber flag plague has struck nearly every competitive venue, so I'll just suck it up and use the stupid things.  They're still dumb though.  

[Patrick Scott]

7 hours ago, Jadeslade said:

No sweeping period. Anywhere. 


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What is the rule that supports that? No troll, honestly want to know.  Please take into consideration that I, as a sometimes PCC shooter, Club BOD member, and wanna be RO, WANT there to be a rule stating this. Im just not seeing it. 

[Kraj]

10 minutes ago, Patrick Scott said:

What is the rule that supports that? No troll, honestly want to know.  Please take into consideration that I, as a sometimes PCC shooter, Club BOD member, and wanna be RO, WANT there to be a rule stating this. Im just not seeing it. 

There was a rule in the provisional appendix that said something along the lines of carrying a rifle not reasonably vertical was a unsafe gun handling dq. when they updated the appendix they changed the wording and took it out. They replaced it with..


PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

but left out the part that says its unsafe gun handling dq.

The part of 5.2.1.3 that allows rifles to be carried in hands throws the dq from 5.2.1 out the window, so we really just need clarification from NROI that carrying it horizontal and pointing it at everyone is a dq, but as of now the rules as written dont support that.


5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match.

[Jadeslade]

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling 

             PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a             chamber flag is inserted. 

[Kraj]

17 minutes ago, Jadeslade said:

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling 

             PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a             chamber flag is inserted. 

Edit.
10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not.


Now I remember..10.5.2 only applies during a course of fire. So wouldn't 10.5.2.1 just be a sub rule of 10.5.2 and only apply during a course of fire? When you read it by itself it makes sense, but if it was in the rule book under 10.5.2 I feel it means something different 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Kraj

[Jadeslade]

43 minutes ago, Kraj said:

Edit.
10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not.


Now I remember..10.5.2 only applies during a course of fire. So wouldn't 10.5.2.1 just be a sub rule of 10.5.2 and only apply during a course of fire? When you read it by itself it makes sense, but if it was in the rule book under 10.5.2 I feel it means something different 

Look at the Addendum for PCC, Here is the complete addendum. You are confusing PCC rules with handguns rules:

Addendum to the 2014 USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014. Pistol Caliber Carbine

All references to “handgun” in the current edition of the rule book are deemed to apply to PCC as well, except where PCC is noted in the rules.

All references to “strong hand” and “weak hand” in the current edition of the rule book apply to PCC as follows: Strong Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the strong hand side, trigger pulled with the strong hand. Both hands may be on the gun. Weak Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the weak side, trigger pulled with the weak hand. Both hands may be on the gun.
NO UPRANGE STARTS WHILE HOLDING THE CARBINE.
NOTE: This applies to classifier requirements in all instances.

PCC 5.1.12 See appendix D8. All other handgun equipment rules apply to PCC

PCC 5.2.1 Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their pistol caliber carbine:

PCC 5.2.1.1 Detachable magazines removed.

PCC 5.2.1.2 Competitors must use a chamber safety flag, or clear chamber device, that is easily visible externally to the gun when transporting from vehicles or stage to stage. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

PCC 5.2.1.3 Un-cased pistol caliber carbines must be carried shouldered or slung from the shoulder or held in the hands with the firearm reasonably vertical. Match Directors may require this to be "vertically upwards" or "vertically downwards" providing this is made clear to all competitors in a reasonable manner.

PCC 5.2.1.4 Pistol caliber carbines may be transported or stored without a slip or case, whether or not reasonably vertical, in a mobile rack or carrier as long as a chamber safety flag is used.

PCC 5.2.1.5 Match organizers may specify that carbines are allowed to be cased or uncased with the muzzle in a safe direction, i.e., into the side berm or backstop. This can be designated as a “staging area” for carbines. No handgun handling is allowed in this area. When casing/uncasing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1

PCC 5.2.1.6 Transporting pistol caliber carbines from the staging area to the start position and back to the staging area from where the shooter unloads and shows clear, the gun must be carried muzzle up or muzzle down with the bolt locked open or closed on a chamber safety flag.

PCC 6.2.5.1 If a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements for PCC division during the course of fire, he will shoot for no score.

PCC 8.1.6 PCC Ready Condition: normally the carbine will be prepared with a loaded chamber, loaded magazine inserted, and safety applied. Other ready conditions may be specified, and may be identical to the handgun ready condition, with the exception of holstering.

PCC 8.2.3 N/A for carbines. Fingers must be outside the trigger guard and the safety applied if the carbine is loaded.

PCC 8.2.4 side.

A course of fire may never require a competitor to start with the carbine held on the weak

A course of fire may never require a competitor to place his PCC in any location after the However, a competitor may place his PCC on any stable object provided this is

PCC 8.2.5.1
start signal.
accomplished in a safe manner and the PCC is unloaded or in a ready condition as stated in section 8.1.

8.3.7.1, PCC: “Bolt closed, hammer down, flag”. While continuing to point the carbine safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the carbine by closing the bolt on an empty chamber, pulling the trigger, and then inserting the chamber flag or locking the bolt open. The carbine must then be transported with the muzzle reasonably vertically up or down off the stage to a rack or case. Carbines may also be cased and transported off the stage in the case. When casing PCC’s, the muzzle must point at a side berm or backstop. Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing will result in a DQ per PCC 10.5.2.1

PCC 10.5.2.1 Failing to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing or uncasing, or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted.

PCC Appendix A3: All references to “strong hand” and “weak hand” in the current edition of the rule book apply to PCC as follows: Strong Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the strong hand side, trigger pulled with the strong hand. Both hands may be on the gun. Weak Hand will require the PCC to be shouldered on the weak side, trigger pulled with the weak hand. Both hands may be on the gun. Course descriptions may never require the carbine to be fired using only one hand.

NOTE: This applies to classifier requirements in all instances. 

Probably should take an RO course. DVC