Movement with a DA/SA pistol

[jebeckjr]

Hi everyone,

With a DA/SA pistol, I understand that when the "Make Ready" command is given, the pistol can have a round chambered, and the hammer must be down. During the stage itself, if movement is required, how is that to be done? Does the hammer need to be dropped first and finger outside the trigger guard, or is movement done in SA mode with the finger outside the trigger guard?

In most of the videos I've seen, it looks like only the first shot is done in DA mode, and all subsequent shots are in SA mode, including where movement is required. Can anyway clarify / confirm?

Thanks!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mrpredictable]

You are correct. The gun being in a safe position or start condition is only required before the beep. After that as long as your finger is out of the trigger guard(unless shooting) the gun can be in any condition you want.

[High Lord Gomer]

The only time you have to put it back into a decocked state is if you decide to reholster a hot weapon during the course of fire. Stage design must never require that and good stage design should never tempt you to do so but you are allowed as long as it is in the same condition as described in 8.1.2,

Edited to add: I went back and found the exact wording of that.

8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

Edited April 10, 2016 by High Lord Gomer

[mrpredictable]

The only time you have to put it back into a decocked state is if you decide to reholster a hot weapon during the course of fire. Stage design must never require that and good stage design should never tempt you to do so but you are allowed as long as it is in the same condition as described in 8.1.2,

Edited to add: I went back and found the exact wording of that.

8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

If applicable you could put the safety on rather than decock for hot reholstering.

[teros135]

Although not in Production, of course.

[Nik Habicht]

Although not in Production, of course.

You could reholster (after the start signal) by applying the safety on a production gun, if so equipped.

As far as movement goes, application of the safety is recommended, not required. Back inn the dark ages, when I actually shot a 1911s in competition occasionally, I found it pretty easy to swipe the safety on when moving and to click it off when driving the gun to the target. To each their own....

[teros135]

Here's the reading from the rule book:

8.2.5 says you can reholster during a COF, but the gun must be either unloaded or in the ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

8.1 designates the ready conditions. 8.1.2 gives the rules for self-loading (semi-auto) pistols. 8.1.2.2 says that "double action" guns must be holstered with hammer fully down or decocked. 8.1.2.3 says that "selective-action" guns can be holstered with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and external safety engaged, but see Divisions in Appendix D.

However, in Appendix D4 (Production), Special Conditions note (at the end of the appendix) says "Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal".

It seems, then, that Production guns can only be holstered or re-holstered decocked (hammer down). You could apply the safety and re-holster in Lim/L10, Open, or SS, but not in Prod.

Edited April 11, 2016 by teros135

[GrumpyOne]

The key there is the wording "At the start signal"...since he is re-holstering during a stage, the hammer does not have to be fully down, as he has already satisfied the start requirement. Therefore, he can re-holster with just the safety engaged, with the hammer cocked.

[teros135]

"In the ready condition stated in Section 8.1" it doesn't say anything else, anywhere.

[GrumpyOne]

"In the ready condition stated in Section 8.1" it doesn't say anything else, anywhere.

The OP states "DA/SA" as the pistol in question...see 8.1.2.3...that you posted above...after the start signal, all he needs is the safety applied, not hammer down, as the start position requirement has been met, since he is in the middle of the cof.

[Nik Habicht]

Teros,

I'll wait for one of the RMIs to chime in, but I find it hard to believe they would extend your reasoning to include the "at the start signal" requirements for reholstering after the start signal......

[bret]

The start condition for production is hammer down, so if you reholster a production gun you have to have a hammer down condition, not the safety applied.

It would not be a DQ for reholstering a gun on safe but I think a bump to open.

Edited April 11, 2016 by bret

[HoMiE]

"In the ready condition stated in Section 8.1" it doesn't say anything else, anywhere.

The OP states "DA/SA" as the pistol in question...see 8.1.2.3...that you posted above...after the start signal, all he needs is the safety applied, not hammer down, as the start position requirement has been met, since he is in the middle of the cof.

This, hammer down only applies at start. If you want to reholster during course of fire safety applied in only requirement.

[bret]

"In the ready condition stated in Section 8.1" it doesn't say anything else, anywhere.

The OP states "DA/SA" as the pistol in question...see 8.1.2.3...that you posted above...after the start signal, all he needs is the safety applied, not hammer down, as the start position requirement has been met, since he is in the middle of the cof.

This, hammer down only applies at start. If you want to reholster during course of fire safety applied in only requirement.

The rules say otherwise for production.

[bikerburgess]

"In the ready condition stated in Section 8.1" it doesn't say anything else, anywhere.

The OP states "DA/SA" as the pistol in question...see 8.1.2.3...that you posted above...after the start signal, all he needs is the safety applied, not hammer down, as the start position requirement has been met, since he is in the middle of the cof.

This, hammer down only applies at start. If you want to reholster during course of fire safety applied in only requirement.

The rules say otherwise for production.

Where?

[motosapiens]

"In the ready condition stated in Section 8.1" it doesn't say anything else, anywhere.

The OP states "DA/SA" as the pistol in question...see 8.1.2.3...that you posted above...after the start signal, all he needs is the safety applied, not hammer down, as the start position requirement has been met, since he is in the middle of the cof.

This, hammer down only applies at start. If you want to reholster during course of fire safety applied in only requirement.

The rules say otherwise for production.

no they don't.

[IronArcher]

8.2.5

A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

Note: it does not say THE ready condition, it says "A" ready condition. Hammer cocked, safety on is A ready condition stated in 8.1

Edited April 11, 2016 by IronArcher

[bret]

8.2.5

A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

Note: it does not say THE ready condition, it says "A" ready condition. Hammer cocked, safety on is A ready condition stated in 8.1

The ready condition for production is not safety on, it is fully decocked, hammer fully down, for guns with external hammers.

[IronArcher]

8.2.5

A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

Note: it does not say THE ready condition, it says "A" ready condition. Hammer cocked, safety on is A ready condition stated in 8.1

The ready condition for production is not safety on, it is fully decocked, hammer fully down, for guns with external hammers.

That's the start position. Again, 8.2.5 says A ready condition, NOT "The ready condition for your division"

8.1.2.3 is A ready condition.

[Sarge]

You guys realize how far off topic this is?

[CZinSC]

You guys realize how far off topic this is?

Very true, but now i am very interested in this topic. i always assumed that Production needed to be hammer down if you holstered in the middle of a COF. I now see what others are saying that 8.1 merely states a ready position, not THE start position.

So i'm curious what NROI has to say about this. I can see both sides of this argument.

[bret]

8.2.5

A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

Note: it does not say THE ready condition, it says "A" ready condition. Hammer cocked, safety on is A ready condition stated in 8.1

The ready condition for production is not safety on, it is fully decocked, hammer fully down, for guns with external hammers.

That's the start position. Again, 8.2.5 says A ready condition, NOT "The ready condition for your division"

8.1.2.3 is A ready condition.

For production with a DA/SA trigger there is only one ready condition.

Equipment rules for production apply, not other divisions.

[IronArcher]

Until NROI says/changes anything, the rule says A ready condition stated in 8.1. Nothing more, no other qualifiers.
Perhaps they MEANT THE starting condition for your division, but that is not what the rule book states.

[Sarge]

8.2.5

A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

Note: it does not say THE ready condition, it says "A" ready condition. Hammer cocked, safety on is A ready condition stated in 8.1

The ready condition for production is not safety on, it is fully decocked, hammer fully down, for guns with external hammers.

That's the start position. Again, 8.2.5 says A ready condition, NOT "The ready condition for your division"

8.1.2.3 is A ready condition.

For production with a DA/SA trigger there is only one ready condition.

Equipment rules for production apply, not other divisions.

Looking at the rules I agree there is a distinct difference between an authorized ready condition and the starting requirement outlined in D4.

The rules clearly state a selective action auto loader has two ready conditions. One hammer down, and the other with hammer cocked safety on.

If a CZ (example) had NO external safety then the hammer would need to be decocked to holster or lay down mid course. If it has a safety then it can be holstered /layed down with hammer cocked and safety on.

D4 simply states external hammers must be fully down at the start signal

[motosapiens]

I don't think this should be any different than if you set the gun on the ground or a table or something. In production you can do that by putting the safety on if your pistol is so equipped.

All the same I enjoy the way Bret such certainty about his own peculiar interpretations.