Short People

[George]

Is there any real supportable reason that we might want to consider a height requirement for USPSA matches?

A little background. I am not thinking we ought to have something like this, quite the opposite, I think it would be an extremely discriminatory thing. But, I recently had the chance to safety check a young shooter at our range. He was 13, but under 5 foot tall by a bit. He exhibited great gun handling skills and had a pretty solid grasp of what to do (better than a lot of adult shooters I supervise on our training days). We ran him on the draw and shoot line, solid. Took him over to a test stage that featured a little movement (back and forth in a large shooting area), some re-loading and some tight shots. He did very well and passed the gun handling tests to boot. So we signed him off with the admonishment to his dad to keep him practicing at home and to keep reinforcing the safety aspect above all else.

Well anyway, after discussing this with some folks (other club officials) setting up for the next days match, I was admonished with a statement to the effect that "we can't have midgets shooting at our matches unless we know they are going to be there"! I said WTF, over. The reply was: "What if we have an upper A/B shot on a target and the round goes over the berm because the shooter is too short?". My response was: "That would be a stage design problem and if we start saying you must be "this high" to shoot, it would be verging on discriminatory behaviour".

So, I am dumping this one to the Forums. What is "Your" collective take on this.

Secondarily: Size aside, is there any real reason any reasonable age kid with good gun handling skills and proper supervision should not be allowed to compete?

Thanks,

Edited April 17, 2005 by George

[XRe]

I was squadded w/ KC Eusebio in '98 at the North American Championships. I think he was, like, 11 at the time?? His Limcat racegun was bigger than he was!!! He did great, even at that age, and none of the stages had any issues w/ regards to rounds leaving the berm due to his height.

There were a couple of instances where they had to provide an "apple crate" for him, on ports that were taller than he was, etc.

I thought it was pretty darn cool, personally

[shred]

We sometimes get adult shooters that aren't 5' tall. I'd say stage designers, range masters and RO's need to account for that.

In theory, somebody could drop prone in the middle of a COF to make that tricky A/B shot. If it's an unsafe angle, the RO should stop them if they can. If the shooter puts a round over the berm, they're responsible for it in any case.

[George]

Thanks guys,

Exactly my thoughts on the shooters engagement position possibilities Shred. Stage design has to take this type of stuff into account.

I didn't want to take them to task on the spot, but felt it just wasn't right for oh, so many reasons.

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Regards,

[mactiger]

Good stage design and competent ROing is the key to this problem, as George and the others have mentioned. There should be absolutely no prohibition on shooter height--adjuncts, like the "apple crate" Dave noted should be available. As long as the competitor can demonstrate safe gun handling skills, they should be allowed to shoot.

Sounds like you got it right, George--tell those guys they'll just have to get over it and design and build their stages for everyone.

I remember KC at the North American--he left this old man standing in a cloud of dust. It was almost comical to see that holster just about dragging the ground.

Troy

[George]

Thanks Troy, this was rankling me a little. I feel much better now.

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Regards,

[GRD]

We have a guy that shoots with us in a wheelchair in addition to several pretty short shooters. We pay attention to shot lines when designing and setting up the stages and make sure we have it under control, but he is ultimately responsible for where his ammo ends up.

We have pretty short berms, too, so it's a concern for us. No biggie, we just end up with up alot of really short 'bad guys'.

- Gabe

[George]

Yes, it is up to the shooter realize what he is doing. But it doesn't absolve us from looking out for the shooter as a basic part of the match job, not just on special order.

I think a "it's the shooters problem" blanket application leads to the accusations of DQ trapping and Gleefull RO'ing we are now seeing. It really is the first job of the match committee at any match to take every possible contingent into account as a simple matter of fact.

The wheelchair shooter is a very valid case in point. Even though he alone is responsible for his shooting safely, he sets one of the end points for setup requirements and endpoints should not be arbitrary, or according to a crowd measurement made that morning. An example would be: "we better watch our gun handling safety better than normal today, some new shooters will be here". Anyone know what's wrong with this?

Thanks again for all of the excellent feedback.

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Regards,

[kimel]

This is a good topic that needs to be addressed in the next version of the Club Handbook. Making sure a step stool or apple crate or whatever is available (and safe!) for use by the vertically challenged is something I doubt many clubs think about.

[Tman33_99]

Being a 6'-2" MD sometimes makes me forgetful of the vertically challenged, but I would never forbid them from coming. Apple Crate is a great thing to have around, or better yet, a battery powered skill saw to lower a port or put in a second lower port. Each of our stages gets a look over by a least two people for shoot thrus, and bullet impact, and the upper A/B get scrutenized for the shorter competitors.

[ima45dv8]

This is another good reason for ports to be long on the verticle axis. It would help prevent this problem with pint-sized shooters, and wouldn't penalize the tall guys who have to scrunch way down to shoot through some of the ones we see today.

[George]

It just occured to me that I was mostly bugged by the aspect of this that said it was a problem to deal with, rather than a privelige to serve a varied clientele.

I think Kimel is onto the fact, that the one percent has to be accomodated in 100% of the cases out there and the guidlines should address this well. And it should be accomodated gladly, not grudgingly IMHO.

I also feel the need to point out that anytime a foot or so engagement height difference will cause a shot to go outside the vertical bounds in some manner, that it is most likely that you are setting up targets too far away from a berm, or that you need higher berms if you are going to do this safely.

Remember, ports control shot angles, if you don't like ports, put the darn targets against the darn berm. Sorry, had to get that off my chest. If we ever want to be absolutely safe in what we do, we may have to re-think freestyle on uprange targets at a lot of ranges.

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Regards,

[zhunter]

This is a GREAT topic, as I am thinking of getting my two kids involved, ages 9 and 10.

Let's keep catering to our NEXT generation of shooters!

[D.Hayden]

Something else to think about for stages.. we had one today, starting sitting in a chair, feet flat on ground, back against chair.. for one of our squad... not possible.

[Dalmas]

In the matches I've attended so far it has been a clear advantage to be vertically challanged. I'm 6'5 and most openings and ports are "low". It's extremely difficult to make it fair for everybody but course design should in most instances use vertical retangular shaped openings giving some more space for hight difference. just ny .02

[zhunter]

In the matches I've attended so far it has been a clear advantage to be vertically challanged. I'm 6'5 and most openings and ports are "low". It's extremely difficult to make it fair for everybody but course design should in most instances use vertical retangular shaped openings giving some more space for hight difference. just ny .02

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm 6'3", so I'm with ya on that one!

[dajarrel]

Let's keep catering to our NEXT generation of shooters!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We have two young shooters. A young man, age 10, and a young lady, aged 12, that both exibit excellent and safe gunhandling skills. They were taught that by thier parents and others both at the range and at home. Both have been DQ'ed once and learned thier lesson as well as any adult.

I'm with zhunter, these youngsters are the next generation of shooters. The game must be made available to them if we want to continue bringing up young shooters.

dj

[Nik Habicht]

In the matches I've attended so far it has been a clear advantage to be vertically challanged. I'm 6'5 and most openings and ports are "low". It's extremely difficult to make it fair for everybody but course design should in most instances use vertical retangular shaped openings giving some more space for hight difference. just ny .02

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm 6'3" ---- so I understand the low port thing ---- but remember, we occasionally have a height advantage too, when we're able to see above a vision barrier, or above the first in a row of poppers.....

I think it mostly levels out in the end.....

[BSeevers]

I have 2 ladies shooting at our matches that are under 5 foot. I believe that it is stage designers and RO's issue to safetly assist the shooter no matter how tall or short they are

[Dalmas]

In the matches I've attended so far it has been a clear advantage to be vertically challanged. I'm 6'5 and most openings and ports are "low". It's extremely difficult to make it fair for everybody but course design should in most instances use vertical retangular shaped openings giving some more space for hight difference. just ny .02

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm 6'3" ---- so I understand the low port thing ---- but remember, we occasionally have a height advantage too, when we're able to see above a vision barrier, or above the first in a row of poppers.....

I think it mostly levels out in the end.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not complaining, eventhough it might come out that way. I wouldn't change my height for anything, I'm also a lefty and most cof are for righties..blabla and on I go.. I'll train harder to make it my advantage..