Dry Fire: Starting Fast or Working Up?

[AEuropa]

So I've started dry fire practice and am working through Steve Anderson's drills. In his book, he recommends starting at .2 slower than your baseline and then speeding up from there.

However, I'm currently watching Ben Stoeger's "Training to Win" DVD (available for purchase/download on Vimeo, BTW ) and at around the 24-minute mark, Ben says that he prefers to start off as fast as he can go, and then try to push from there. His logic is that you don't get a chance to get faster at a match, you just have to start fast.

As a beginner, I definitely feel more comfortable building up to speed since I'm still trying to get to the subconscious level. But I can certainly see the merits of Stoeger's take on starting fast and allowing yourself to make mistakes.

What's everyone else's take on this?

[wtturn]

Which one of the two guys you mentioned is the five time consecutive and reigning national champion?

/thread

[Nickb45]

Most of the time I pick up where I left off. I use the "dry fire timer" app and have all of the drills from Bens book entered into it.

If I have problems with something then I will slow it down and work through the motions and build back up to speed.

When I was starting with dry fire I found just taking the timer away for a few runs to relax a little was all I needed.

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[Jake Di Vita]

As far as dry fire goes, I'll start a little slower to warm up because I can do that exact same thing on the range before the match starts. When it comes to live fire, I start at match pace or higher.

[motosapiens]

Which one of the two guys you mentioned is the five time consecutive and reigning national champion?

this is a great point. since i'm not a national champ, i shouldn't expect to be able to train the exact same way.

I think for us lesser shooters (especially real noobs), there is value in starting off a bit slower and focusing on technique and smoothness and execution and relaxation, and really burning those movements in.

But my advice in general is to try both and see what works for you. For me it definitely works better to do some slightly slower reps ( closer to my match pace, that I can execute subconsiously) before I start trying and pushing. It helps keep me from developing bad habits when I'm trying and pushing.

[wav3rhythm]

I personally like to do a few drills (4 aces, 6 reload 6, Blake drill) when I start a dry fire session as fast as I can to see what I can do while cold. Then I will set slower par times and work up using the Stoeger dry fire book. I've also found that I've made more progress doing more dry fire sessions that are shorter in duration. I think this helps me with first stage jitters and uncertainty if I use the same routine that I use prior to the first stage of a match.

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[Fuzz]

I do a few drills in very slow motion. Just to build proper grip and draw. Then go to full speed. I can do this at the safety table at the match. I have also felt that doing some stretching before starting seems to help.

[perttime]

Smooth is fast.

For us who are not yet fast, getting smooth is a step in that direction. Starting at "deliberate", instead of "warp", speed can help with getting smooth.

[Jake Di Vita]

Smooth is fast.

I have truly grown to hate this cliche, even more so when preceded by "slow is smooth".

There are plenty of people who can shoot smoothly and do it slow as dirt. Smooth is not fast. Fast is fast. I have no problem with starting deliberate though.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[Beastly]

Until you 'do the work' and see what works for you, you will never know.

Test your dry fire in live fire and you will learn how badly you are cheating to make overly aggressive dry fire par times.

You will never get faster unless you push YOUR envelope.

[perttime]

Smooth is fast.

I have truly grown to hate this cliche, even more so when preceded by "slow is smooth".

..

OK, I'll give you an other one: "Take your time quickly."

There may be people who can instinctively get a pistol on target quickly ,the first time they get one in their hands. Many seem to benefit from starting - let's call it - "deliberate", so that they can actively eliminate wasted movement.

Edited March 11, 2016 by perttime

[Erttactics]

I do a little of both, if I learned something from a recent live fire session that I need to work on then I slow down a bit to focus on that one area. Mostly I try to crush all of the par times in the book,I think once you get used to the speed and pace it comes more natural when live firing.

[Nimitz]

I'm not aware of anyone who learned to shoot fast by shooting slow .. Speed never comes unless you force yourself to go fast ... While maintaining acceptable accuracy ....

[R.Elliott]

Shoot as fast as you can see. Live or dry.

[johnbu]

Smooth is fast.

I have truly grown to hate this cliche, even more so when preceded by "slow is smooth".

There are plenty of people who can shoot smoothly and do it slow as dirt. Smooth is not fast. Fast is fast. I have no problem with starting deliberate though.

I'm a noob, total gun game beginner, but along time so-so plinker. The advice I've been given is to practice things as fast as I can, until they start to get easier. Then push harder. But live fire practice take it just a bit slower to try for all A hits.

I do repetitive slow motions to get at least an understanding of how to do it, then see how bad it falls apart at speed. Then work on that motion, then see where else things fly apart at speed, etc etc.

Last December, I had a 2.75-3.0s draw. Now its down pretty regularly to 1.2-1.3 dry firing and today live firing was 1.4-1.6 and the percentage of A hits is higher and the "misses" are still on the paper mostly C with just a few D shooting the uspsa targets at 17yds. I can't say the go slow and work progressively faster won't work as good or better, but this method seems pretty productive.

[SWHlctx]

I asked one of the master level guys I shoot with the question about fast or slow starting in practice. He told me he thinks of it in a different way. He said he does what he calls "firing" training and "technique" training and thinks of them as different animals whether he is dry firing or live firing.

In "firing" training mode he is adamant about going fast and at match speed. For example the draw. He said if you think about it there are only 5-7 draws total in a club match depending on the number of stages, so you had better be quick from the first one. He thought it was alright when practicing to do a couple (as in 2) of slow draws to warm up, but move to par times right away. His take was if you are not going match speed you are training to be slow.

In "technique" training mode he goes slow and deliberate to get the movement down and force muscle memory. This would be applicable to changing the way you handle a mag or changes in your draw, etc. He said he also usually adds some sort of count and will verbally count out when he is training. An example would be like ONE - right hand here and left hand here, TWO - right hand moves to here and left and moves to here, THREE - both hands move to here and eyes move to here (here is wherever they need to be) and so on.

I've been trying it and find it is working for me. I've been able to drop my draw time from 1.5 sec average time to 1.1 - 1.2 consistently and with a good hit.

[b1gcountry]

First off, if you can't hit your shots with no time pressure you won't be able to under a timer. Until you get to this point, I don't see benefit in training for speed. This is a pretty low bar for uspsa type shooting most times, and a little harder for the hard shots in steel challenge.

Once you can make your shots though, you should push for speed in dry fire. I like to find my baseline pants on fire time for a drill. Get your minimum time to complete all the motions with zero regard for accuracy or sight picture. Based on your current level of skill, this will be the fastest you can possibly shoot that drill. It is good to know this time in dry for our live fire but it isn't good to spend too much time practicing it, especially in live fire.

What you really want to do is get your body used to the speed, and then bring some of those speed improvements over to your runs with good sight pictures. Do the same drill with realistic sight pictures, and figure out how much time you are over your pants on fire times. Then spend your dry fire time trying to reduce this time difference.

Getting accurate hits on every target is challenging in a match, but that is only half of the game.

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[b1gcountry]

There is little benefit in training your muscle memory by going slow. Often, the body mechanics will be totally different when you are going fast. There is no room for inefficiency at speed, and the point of dry fire is the remove those inefficiencies. Training to do something slow will not always translate when you try to do it fast.

Edited March 21, 2016 by b1gcountry

[AEuropa]

Right, but won't training too fast ingrain the wrong movement patterns? For example, I CAN draw the gun "onto" the target in 0.7, but more than 50% of the time I miss the proper grip.

It seems likely that I could reenforce bad technique and start missing "match speed" draws. But on the other hand, my thought is that those bad .7 draws will, over time, make the 1.2-1.3 live fire match draws feel much more repeatable.

In standard fashion, I'm probably overthinking this whole thing.

[Jake Di Vita]

Right, but won't training too fast ingrain the wrong movement patterns? For example, I CAN draw the gun "onto" the target in 0.7, but more than 50% of the time I miss the proper grip.

It seems likely that I could reenforce bad technique and start missing "match speed" draws. But on the other hand, my thought is that those bad .7 draws will, over time, make the 1.2-1.3 live fire match draws feel much more repeatable.

In standard fashion, I'm probably overthinking this whole thing.

What you're speaking of is exactly why it is important to train outside your comfort zone. As you increase speed, you also increase the demands on your technique. This is critical because the rate at which we improve is proportional to the demands you put on yourself. In the same vein, we as humans don't generally improve by doing something that is easy. In your case of missing the grip 50% of the time at .7, that might be a little too high failure rate. If you asked for my advice, I'd tell you to do the bulk of your training at a speed which gives you about a 75% success rate. Then as your success rate improves, you one again increase the speed.

It is certainly possible to reinforce bad technique. Avoiding this requires proprioception (knowing where your body is in space), video analysis, and attention on what you are doing during practice. Even then you'll still likely have some less than ideal stuff work it's way in, this is one of the reasons coaches exist in most sports. The other side of this coin is if you don't push hard enough to where your technique starts to degrade, you don't have any stimulus for favorable adaptation. If you are doing something with a 100% success rate, you are not improving.

[b1gcountry]

Right, but won't training too fast ingrain the wrong movement patterns? For example, I CAN draw the gun "onto" the target in 0.7, but more than 50% of the time I miss the proper grip.

It seems likely that I could reenforce bad technique and start missing "match speed" draws. But on the other hand, my thought is that those bad .7 draws will, over time, make the 1.2-1.3 live fire match draws feel much more repeatable.

In standard fashion, I'm probably overthinking this whole thing.

Instead of thinking in terms of I need to slow down in order to get a good grip, think in terms of I need to improve my hand position so I can get the right grip at the same speed. That might mean breaking things down into micro drills where you practice the first step of the draw, and stop when you grip the gun. IE, don't even clear kydex.

Sometimes going slow actually masks flaws in your mechanics. You have time to correct that bad grip so you don't even notice you started the draw with bad hand position.

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Edited March 21, 2016 by b1gcountry

[pointerman1967]

Right, but won't training too fast ingrain the wrong movement patterns? For example, I CAN draw the gun "onto" the target in 0.7, but more than 50% of the time I miss the proper grip.

It seems likely that I could reenforce bad technique and start missing "match speed" draws. But on the other hand, my thought is that those bad .7 draws will, over time, make the 1.2-1.3 live fire match draws feel much more repeatable.

In standard fashion, I'm probably overthinking this whole thing.

I am only a C class shooter, so my advice isn't worth spit, but I like what Steve Anderson has to say about this. He makes the distinction between "match guy" and "practice guy". Practice guy is allowed to miss or drop c and d zone hits when pushing speed so long as you SEE that you did it. If you can't call your shot in dry fire then going really fast in dry fire might be damaging. So push it as fast as you can and just make sure you see that you would have had a miss. Don't bring "practice guy" to the match.

[rowdyb]

It depends on my goal. if i'm already doing something well but need to do it faster then my dry fire of that is as fast as possible.

if i am trying something, new, correcting an error then i start slowly, doing it right as much as possible and then crank in the speed as i progress.

it doesn't have to be one or the other. it can be both but i think it is based on circumstances and experience. it seems every shooter coming up is trying to reinvent the wheel, party it seems because no one wants to pay what it costs to get great in person instruction on a regular basis. (coaches don't work for free)

Edited March 24, 2016 by rowdyb

[chuckpetree]

Here I modified my post. I am not a master shooter anymore. So I will shutup.

Edited April 5, 2016 by chuckpetree

[motosapiens]

Start slow build good controlled trigger control and work up from there. Do not push for speed, then bad habits are formed and your scores will suffer. With repetition muscle memory develops and speed comes.

How long did it take you to make M using that strategy?

Does it worry you that virtually every accomplished shooter teaches contrary to your advise?