Sarge Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 It's been awhile but a few rules issues presented themselves recently. First- if a lady in your squad needs to use the porta potty and determines the safe area is too far away and goes into the PP with her gear on would You DQ her when she came out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Negative....you only rule on what you know and, unless you're porta-potty-cam is running, you don't know what happened in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Would you DQ a guy that did the same thing? Is pulling your pants down with your rig on considered taking your rig off? And yes there is that only calling what you are 100% sure of that gets in the way as well. Now if you asked her "did you take your gun out of the holster or your gun belt off" and she told you what she did then........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 How can you call something you didn't actually see? Yes, reasonable people would make logical assumptions, etc., BUT you did not see it, so you cannot call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 It's been awhile but a few rules issues presented themselves recently. First- if a lady in your squad needs to use the porta potty and determines the safe area is too far away and goes into the PP with her gear on would You DQ her when she came out? Sorry Buddy, but I think you are really reaching on this one. My answer is NO. I am not going to DQ a guy coming out of the PP UNLESS upon exiting the PP. he/she shows a clear violation of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Negative....you only rule on what you know and, unless you're porta-potty-cam is running, you don't know what happened in there.Where do I get a porta-potty-cam? Asking for a friend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Believe it or not, this was discussed here back when single stack came into being. I remember that Gary Stevens had an opinion. But, I don't care enough to search... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 It's been awhile but a few rules issues presented themselves recently. First- if a lady in your squad needs to use the porta potty and determines the safe area is too far away and goes into the PP with her gear on would You DQ her when she came out? Sorry Buddy, but I think you are really reaching on this one. My answer is NO. I am not going to DQ a guy coming out of the PP UNLESS upon exiting the PP. he/she shows a clear violation of the rules. How did a guy get into the equation? Personally I pee standing up. But a woman goes in with her gear on and comes and says how relieved she is that it was so close. She HAD to undo her rig and pants to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 [quote name="ktm300" post="2565470" timestamp="1457356155" Is pulling your pants down with your rig on considered taking your rig off? .... Yes. According to the rules the belt has a defined location around the waist for both sexes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 Believe it or not, this was discussed here back when single stack came into being. I remember that Gary Stevens had an opinion. But, I don't care enough to search...When we stop caring about the rules we should just shoot outlaw matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman1776 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Maybe it's because I'm new to the game but if that scenario happened and she got dq'ed It would really turn me off from uspsa. Maybe veterans have a different opinion but that just doesn't seem right. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 [quote name="ktm300" post="2565470" timestamp="1457356155" Is pulling your pants down with your rig on considered taking your rig off? .... Yes. According to the rules the belt has a defined location around the waist for both sexes 5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match. So we need to define "on their person" correct? Do we agree the holster is still attached to the belt? If you are getting ready to run a COF the RO gives Make Ready and your belt comes loose and your pants fall a few inches are you a DQ? Where along that path is it a DQ? 5.2.3 doesn't seem to have a DQ attached to it like 5.2.1 does. I can't find an appendix entry that defines "on their person". If the belt is still attached to the pants, and the pants are still on the person I think we are good to go unless you try to run a COF with it like that. 5.2.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and allied equipment must be worn during the course of fire; the belt must be worn at the waist level, which is deemed to be at the same level as the original belt loops on the lower garment. (See 5.2.3.1 for exceptions.) The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. The belt may be removed between courses of fire. 5.2.3.1 Lady competitors are permitted to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip level, however, the top of the belt must not be positioned below the furthest lateral point of the top of the femur (tuberosity major). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Maybe it's because I'm new to the game but if that scenario happened and she got dq'ed It would really turn me off from uspsa. Maybe veterans have a different opinion but that just doesn't seem right. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This vet has the same opinion as you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Maybe it's because I'm new to the game but if that scenario happened and she got dq'ed It would really turn me off from uspsa. Maybe veterans have a different opinion but that just doesn't seem right. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This vet has the same opinion as you. Me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Believe it or not, this was discussed here back when single stack came into being. I remember that Gary Stevens had an opinion. But, I don't care enough to search...When we stop caring about the rules we should just shoot outlaw matches. It is not caring about the rules, it is not caring that someone starts a thread without any searching to see if it was already discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 It's been awhile but a few rules issues presented themselves recently. First- if a lady in your squad needs to use the porta potty and determines the safe area is too far away and goes into the PP with her gear on would You DQ her when she came out? Sorry Buddy, but I think you are really reaching on this one. My answer is NO. I am not going to DQ a guy coming out of the PP UNLESS upon exiting the PP. he/she shows a clear violation of the rules. How did a guy get into the equation? Personally I pee standing up. But a woman goes in with her gear on and comes and says how relieved she is that it was so close. She HAD to undo her rig and pants to go. Because a guy has to sit to sh... right? Do you know what the guy did... My point is...sometimes we take the rules thing a bit to far. I'm all about rules too, but this situation is not something I care a lot about. If the person drops their gun or mag in the pretty blue water--I bet they run to the safe area next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 [quote name="ktm300" post="2565470" timestamp="1457356155" Is pulling your pants down with your rig on considered taking your rig off? .... Yes. According to the rules the belt has a defined location around the waist for both sexes 5.2.1 Carry and Storage Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match. So we need to define "on their person" correct? Do we agree the holster is still attached to the belt? If you are getting ready to run a COF the RO gives Make Ready and your belt comes loose and your pants fall a few inches are you a DQ? Where along that path is it a DQ? 5.2.3 doesn't seem to have a DQ attached to it like 5.2.1 does. I can't find an appendix entry that defines "on their person". If the belt is still attached to the pants, and the pants are still on the person I think we are good to go unless you try to run a COF with it like that. 5.2.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and allied equipment must be worn during the course of fire; the belt must be worn at the waist level, which is deemed to be at the same level as the original belt loops on the lower garment. (See 5.2.3.1 for exceptions.) The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. The belt may be removed between courses of fire. 5.2.3.1 Lady competitors are permitted to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip level, however, the top of the belt must not be positioned below the furthest lateral point of the top of the femur (tuberosity major). Seems you just answered the question. The belt can't be around the waist if you sit down on the toilet. In this case falling off and removing are entirely different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 Believe it or not, this was discussed here back when single stack came into being. I remember that Gary Stevens had an opinion. But, I don't care enough to search...When we stop caring about the rules we should just shoot outlaw matches.It is not caring about the rules, it is not caring that someone starts a thread without any searching to see if it was already discussed.I looked but like most other things on here they don't just pop up logically in a search. Where you don't care to search I don't care to keep searching and searching. If this exact situation has been discussed in sure somebody might find it and provide the link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 Maybe it's because I'm new to the game but if that scenario happened and she got dq'ed It would really turn me off from uspsa. Maybe veterans have a different opinion but that just doesn't seem right. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This vet has the same opinion as you. Me too.It's not veterans. It's anybody who tries to learn the rules. I'm not saying I would DQ her out of hand but when another shooter sees the same thing and asks", hmmm wonder how she did that?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revoman Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) It's been awhile but a few rules issues presented themselves recently. First- if a lady in your squad needs to use the porta potty and determines the safe area is too far away and goes into the PP with her gear on would You DQ her when she came out? Sorry Buddy, but I think you are really reaching on this one. My answer is NO. I am not going to DQ a guy coming out of the PP UNLESS upon exiting the PP. he/she shows a clear violation of the rules. How did a guy get into the equation? Personally I pee standing up. But a woman goes in with her gear on and comes and says how relieved she is that it was so close. She HAD to undo her rig and pants to go. Because a guy has to sit to sh... right? Do you know what the guy did... My point is...sometimes we take the rules thing a bit to far. I'm all about rules too, but this situation is not something I care a lot about. If the person drops their gun or mag in the pretty blue water--I bet they run to the safe area next time. If this happens does the RO closest to the PP have to retrieve the pistol? ? Edited March 7, 2016 by revoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) simply suggest to the person that she bag her gun at the safe table before using the porta potty to make sure no safety violations (or dropped guns) occur during porta potty visits. This seems like an opportunity to educate rather than opportunity to bust someone and be all smug with how far one will go to enforce every imaginable rule. Personally I agree with ktm300; I don't see any dq-offense in dropping your pants with the gun still in the holster. Many other potentially dq-able things could happen in there, but I'm not going to go look for them. Edited March 7, 2016 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 [quote name="ktm300" post="2565470" timestamp="1457356155" Is pulling your pants down with your rig on considered taking your rig off? .... Yes. According to the rules the belt has a defined location around the waist for both sexes 5.2.1 Carry and Storage Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1). A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match. So we need to define "on their person" correct? Do we agree the holster is still attached to the belt? If you are getting ready to run a COF the RO gives Make Ready and your belt comes loose and your pants fall a few inches are you a DQ? Where along that path is it a DQ? 5.2.3 doesn't seem to have a DQ attached to it like 5.2.1 does. I can't find an appendix entry that defines "on their person". If the belt is still attached to the pants, and the pants are still on the person I think we are good to go unless you try to run a COF with it like that. 5.2.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and allied equipment must be worn during the course of fire; the belt must be worn at the waist level, which is deemed to be at the same level as the original belt loops on the lower garment. (See 5.2.3.1 for exceptions.) The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. The belt may be removed between courses of fire. 5.2.3.1 Lady competitors are permitted to wear a belt, holster and allied equipment at hip level, however, the top of the belt must not be positioned below the furthest lateral point of the top of the femur (tuberosity major). Seems you just answered the question. The belt can't be around the waist if you sit down on the toilet. In this case falling off and removing are entirely different So show me the penalty for the belt not being around the waist. I still see that as "on their person". If you remove the belt from your pants or remove your pants I would see that as a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 OK. Then I guess the question could be split. Aside from the original, is it legal to drop your pants with the gun and belt still attached? To me it would seem to be legal at first glance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) OK. Doubled Edited March 7, 2016 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Believe it or not, I was involved in a discussion of this at a local match yesterday. The person who brought it up is a long time CRO and is an RM as well. He witnessed, at a major match, a fairly well-known lady shooter exiting a porta john with all of her gear around her waist. Not knowing exactly what happened inside the porta john, but having a very good idea what she was doing, he (somewhat) innocently asked, "Touching up your makeup?" The lady was a bit startled, but said, "Uhh, yep!" I think this is instructive for two reasons: 1) The guy could have gone full Range Nazi and made a stink of it. He probably would have accomplished little more than pissing off a bunch of folks and embarrassing himself and the lady in question. He chose not to do so, and made his point pretty eloquently (which for him is not always the case ). 2) The lady in question, probably doing the routine thing of waiting until the last possible second to go to the potty, realized she did something that wasn't terribly smart and will probably remember to plan her breaks better in the future. She learned her lesson in a way that wasn't publicly embarrassing, but will likely endure. I think this is probably the BEST possible way to handle something like this. And I'd do the same for a guy who did the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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