Pistol competition will be kaput.

[lcs]

With Open being scored as Major and PCC being scored as minor, there is no contest.

This. If you're shooting minor against major, you are pretty much starting around 10% in the hole.

Not that it matters in any way shape or form.

It matters if you are shooting Lim Minor.

Of course it does. I'm saying the comparison between divisions doesn't matter in any way shape or form. It doesn't matter if pcc beats all the open shooters or vice versa. Who cares?

If I don't send out "overall" stats in my matches-I hear about it. No matter what Division I am shooting, if someone is consistently two or three positions higher and I start gaining or even surpassing that person--I am becoming faster/better. It is just one of many metrics.

The more people shoot the better it is. It's all good!

[teros135]

Actually, comparison to high overall (which is often the Open winner, but not always) is useful, for me, especially if its a ranked GM. This creates a sort of "absolute best" for the match, and I can tell where I am in comparison to that metric. For instance, last year if I would shoot 44% against an Open GM in Production that puts me pretty much at my "major match" level (C Prod).

I'm not saying it's absolute, but it does help.

It's all somewhat subjective. Our percentage relative to the winner in our own Division depends on who the winner was (A? M? GM? Top GM?) and how he was doing that day. It's still a metric, to tell how we're doing.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm not saying it is bad to use aggregate for comparison purposes, I'm saying it shouldn't matter to anyone if a PCC shooter wins high overall.

[kernelofwisdom]

But why does a rifle have to be scored with the handguns?

Will rifle shooters say hey if I'm only scored against other rifles and not also handguns I just won't shoot?

If rifle/carbine guys want the victory of using the handgun match infrastructure, do they also have to be scored in the same match to be satisfied? I wouldn't think so.

Edited February 13, 2016 by kernelofwisdom

[Beastly]

Q: Why do revolver shooters have to be scored with open shooters?

A: They aren't.

[1time]

Actually, comparison to high overall (which is often the Open winner, but not always) is useful, for me, especially if its a ranked GM. This creates a sort of "absolute best" for the match, and I can tell where I am in comparison to that metric. For instance, last year if I would shoot 44% against an Open GM in Production that puts me pretty much at my "major match" level (C Prod).

I'm not saying it's absolute, but it does help.

It's all somewhat subjective. Our percentage relative to the winner in our own Division depends on who the winner was (A? M? GM? Top GM?) and how he was doing that day. It's still a metric, to tell how we're doing.

Then if PPC is the fastest you still have your metric.

[1time]

But why does a rifle have to be scored with the handguns?

Will rifle shooters say hey if I'm only scored against other rifles and not also handguns I just won't shoot?

If rifle/carbine guys want the victory of using the handgun match infrastructure, do they also have to be scored in the same match to be satisfied? I wouldn't think so.

The victory goes to the winner of division/class. There is no best time of the day winner.

[kernelofwisdom]

Well I said victory of using the infrastructure but talked about scoring them together so that was all poorly phrased. I meant them being in the same match is what seems an unnecessary blending to me - PCC shooters using the handgun match course for a short rifle course is what I intended to mean by "victory" for them.

I thought perhaps the goal was to be able to use the existing handgun match course (it is currently a handgun match after all, currently), so PCC's could fire a match without all the issues of setting up a match course of fire (time, labor, etc.).

But I'm gathering from these responses it's not that, it's that (some) PCC shooters see that PCC needs to be in the handgun match itself. I'm not sure why that is. One thought is that well why should any hand gunner care b/c divisions. On the other hand, why the resistance to having carbine matches?

That's what I'm used to seeing around here - handgun matches and carbine matches. You shoot a handgun in one and a carbine in the other. I can't see why they couldn't be shot at the same time if the course makes sense and they each follow their rules, but I don't see why they have to be the same match. What makes the carbine shooters need to have their rifles in the current handgun match is something I don't understand.

Edited February 13, 2016 by kernelofwisdom

[Shadyscott999]

I don't follow. Why will handgun shooters be bottom of the food chain? They will certainly be shooting faster than the carbine carriers.

A carbine rifle is faster and more accurate than a pistol.

Head to head, pistols cannot compete. In a match overall rankings, a rifle will be dominant. Will you still want to shoot a USPSA. Match given that those who bring a PCC will destroy you?

I really don't care, just consider the question.

In the type of matches we shoot in USPSA, Open guns will still mud stomp PCC. You cannot navigate a stage wit a carbine like you can with a pistol.

[zhunter]

IF you are paying attention to your practice live fire results and HF's, you should know when you have a good run or not even without comparing your HF to someone else's.

Do you know your draw times to: 3, 5, 7 10, 15, 20, and 25 yard targets?

Do you know your:

Standing reload times?

Movement time between shooting positions separated by 5 yards?

Split times at different distance targets?

Transition times at different distances?

Do you even track your practice times?

IF not how do you plan a stage with different stage plans available?

Bottom line is, if you don't know the above info you are not taking it seriously. If you don't know this stuff you are likely shooting matches to get out of the house for a few hours and hangout with your buddies.

If you are first up on a stage, do you know how you did, or do you have to wait for others to run the stage and compare?

I'd say most here answer No to most of the questions, and many don't even know what I'm talking about

[RangerTrace]

I don't follow. Why will handgun shooters be bottom of the food chain? They will certainly be shooting faster than the carbine carriers.

A carbine rifle is faster and more accurate than a pistol.

Head to head, pistols cannot compete. In a match overall rankings, a rifle will be dominant. Will you still want to shoot a USPSA. Match given that those who bring a PCC will destroy you?

I really don't care, just consider the question.

In the type of matches we shoot in USPSA, Open guns will still mud stomp PCC. You cannot navigate a stage wit a carbine like you can with a pistol.

Exactly.

[1time]

Well I said victory of using the infrastructure but talked about scoring them together so that was all poorly phrased. I meant them being in the same match is what seems an unnecessary blending to me - PCC shooters using the handgun match course for a short rifle course is what I intended to mean by "victory" for them.

I thought perhaps the goal was to be able to use the existing handgun match course (it is currently a handgun match after all, currently), so PCC's could fire a match without all the issues of setting up a match course of fire (time, labor, etc.).

But I'm gathering from these responses it's not that, it's that (some) PCC shooters see that PCC needs to be in the handgun match itself. I'm not sure why that is. One thought is that well why should any hand gunner care b/c divisions. On the other hand, why the resistance to having carbine matches?

That's what I'm used to seeing around here - handgun matches and carbine matches. You shoot a handgun in one and a carbine in the other. I can't see why they couldn't be shot at the same time if the course makes sense and they each follow their rules, but I don't see why they have to be the same match. What makes the carbine shooters need to have their rifles in the current handgun match is something I don't understand.

You worded it fine, my reading comprehension was lacking. PCC's capabilities are far closer to pistols than carbines. The same rules work for both except for the start position. The match I attend most frequently dropped USPSA affiliation a few years back. The first few years they held pistol matches and allowed carbines. It worked very smoothly together. I agree with some of the previous posters that said that some stages will be owned by PPC, some will be owned by open/limited. The winners are the best shooters.

The biggest reason I can see is to attract shooter back. 3gun has pulled a lot of shooters from USPSA and I'll bet it has nothing to do with a want to load the shotgun.

Edited February 13, 2016 by 1time

[kernelofwisdom]

Well I said victory of using the infrastructure but talked about scoring them together so that was all poorly phrased. I meant them being in the same match is what seems an unnecessary blending to me - PCC shooters using the handgun match course for a short rifle course is what I intended to mean by "victory" for them.

I thought perhaps the goal was to be able to use the existing handgun match course (it is currently a handgun match after all, currently), so PCC's could fire a match without all the issues of setting up a match course of fire (time, labor, etc.).

But I'm gathering from these responses it's not that, it's that (some) PCC shooters see that PCC needs to be in the handgun match itself. I'm not sure why that is. One thought is that well why should any hand gunner care b/c divisions. On the other hand, why the resistance to having carbine matches?

That's what I'm used to seeing around here - handgun matches and carbine matches. You shoot a handgun in one and a carbine in the other. I can't see why they couldn't be shot at the same time if the course makes sense and they each follow their rules, but I don't see why they have to be the same match. What makes the carbine shooters need to have their rifles in the current handgun match is something I don't understand.

You worded it fine, my reading comprehension was lacking. PCC's capabilities are far closer to pistols than carbines. The same rules work for both except for the start position. The match I attend most frequently dropped USPSA affiliation a few years back. The first few years they held pistol matches and allowed carbines. It worked very smoothly together. I agree with some of the previous posters that said that some stages will be owned by PPC, some will be owned by open/limited. The winners are the best shooters.

The biggest reason I can see is to attract shooter back. 3gun has pulled a lot of shooters from USPSA and I'll bet it has nothing to do with a want to load the shotgun.

You're right there. I hate the shotgun reload.

Anyway, if they put it through a provisional period I can't see how that's bad. I wouldn't have picked it as an issue for now, but I can see the reasons people want to do it and I think the leadership will do their best to integrate it smoothly with good communication.

I got a 9mm Colt carbine a while back - should dust it off and go to one of the local carbine matches and see what the fuss is about!

[Beastly]

Well I said victory of using the infrastructure but talked about scoring them together so that was all poorly phrased. I meant them being in the same match is what seems an unnecessary blending to me - PCC shooters using the handgun match course for a short rifle course is what I intended to mean by "victory" for them.

I thought perhaps the goal was to be able to use the existing handgun match course (it is currently a handgun match after all, currently), so PCC's could fire a match without all the issues of setting up a match course of fire (time, labor, etc.).

But I'm gathering from these responses it's not that, it's that (some) PCC shooters see that PCC needs to be in the handgun match itself. I'm not sure why that is. One thought is that well why should any hand gunner care b/c divisions. On the other hand, why the resistance to having carbine matches?

That's what I'm used to seeing around here - handgun matches and carbine matches. You shoot a handgun in one and a carbine in the other. I can't see why they couldn't be shot at the same time if the course makes sense and they each follow their rules, but I don't see why they have to be the same match. What makes the carbine shooters need to have their rifles in the current handgun match is something I don't understand.

Why don't we see local Level 1 Production-only, Limited-Only, Open-Only matches, Revolver-only USPSA matches?

Because multi-division matches work better for mutual benefit.

[kernelofwisdom]

I see the merit in what you're saying. It's a good point. I see the other side too. But, if the idea is to consider rules for a provisional division to see how it works, it seems that would shake it out for everybody - that process seems reasonable - if damage is being done to the handgun side of the matches it would come to the fore and if not then that's that. I've got at last count (and hopefully at some point fewer) 9 AR style carbines so I'm certainly not against the platform.

[Beastly]

I think the 'presumption of damage' arguments are based on an undeservedly low opinion of our Match Directors and USPSA leadership.

[kernelofwisdom]

I can only say I have a high opinion of both and I share concerns other people have about the rifles being in the match. I think those being aired early give the leadership the opportunity to hear all aspects of criticism before provisional rules are passed - the more and better considered the issue is before they launch the better.

The provisional division gives it a shakedown cruise - can't see any harm in that.

Don't do carry optics again - a division with an odd name with apparently haphazard restrictions.

[RangerTrace]

Here is a little example from from of our club matches today......HOA GM Open shooter beat another GM PCC shooter by 24%. They are usually neck and neck with pistols. Just an observation...

[Sarge]

Here is a little example from from of our club matches today......HOA GM Open shooter beat another GM PCC shooter by 24%. They are usually neck and neck with pistols. Just an observation...

What is a GM PCC shooter? I guess you mean a pistol GM shooting a carbine? If so, that may or may not mean much. Just because a guy can run the heck out of a pistol doesn't mean he can do the same with a rifle.

[RangerTrace]

Here is a little example from from of our club matches today......HOA GM Open shooter beat another GM PCC shooter by 24%. They are usually neck and neck with pistols. Just an observation...

What is a GM PCC shooter? I guess you mean a pistol GM shooting a carbine? If so, that may or may not mean much. Just because a guy can run the heck out of a pistol doesn't mean he can do the same with a rifle.

True. But to hear folks on here, the PCC guys should instantly cream everybody shooting a pistol.

[skatz11]

I don't see the problem with allowing PCC's. Competition is important to us all, but at the end of the day this sport is about having fun. Personally I'm excited about being able to just if a PCC purchase.

The "P" in USPSA is for practical. We all seem to forget that and think of this a a pistol game. USPSA missed the boat on 3gun big time and this could be help get a foot back in that door.

[MilkMyDuds]

Wait till USPSA brings in airsoft division. That's when all goes kaput.

[MilkMyDuds]

I don't see the problem with allowing PCC's. Competition is important to us all, but at the end of the day this sport is about having fun. Personally I'm excited about being able to just if a PCC purchase.

The "P" in USPSA is for practical. We all seem to forget that and think of this a a pistol game. USPSA missed the boat on 3gun big time and this could be help get a foot back in that door.

Handguns, shot guns, rifles and airsoft. They are all different beasts and should have their own matches.

[StealthyBlagga]

I don't see the problem with allowing PCC's. Competition is important to us all, but at the end of the day this sport is about having fun. Personally I'm excited about being able to just if a PCC purchase.

The "P" in USPSA is for practical. We all seem to forget that and think of this a a pistol game. USPSA missed the boat on 3gun big time and this could be help get a foot back in that door.

Handguns, shot guns, rifles and airsoft. They are all different beasts and should have their own matches.

Perhaps, but PCC isn't any of those. It is my opinion that PCCs best fit into HANDGUN competitions, and that they can be so integrated without impacting the competitive experience for handgunners. It seems to be other people's opinion that this cannot be done without damaging the essential character of the sport. The purpose of a provisional division is to prove the latter wrong .

Edited February 14, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[FearsomeCritter]

I don't see the problem with allowing PCC's. Competition is important to us all, but at the end of the day this sport is about having fun. Personally I'm excited about being able to just if a PCC purchase.

The "P" in USPSA is for practical. We all seem to forget that and think of this a a pistol game. USPSA missed the boat on 3gun big time and this could be help get a foot back in that door.

Handguns, shot guns, rifles and airsoft. They are all different beasts and should have their own matches.

Wait till USPSA brings in airsoft division. That's when all goes kaput.

Slippery slope argument. Yet another argument by fallacy to disregard.