BeerBaron Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I think showing up to a single division match (like CO nats) with a non compliant gun (in this example overweight) will mean shooting for no score as open is not a division that has been declared at the match. it's a single division match. so for sure you could shoot an iron sight gun at CO nats but it must meet the CO rules (weight limit etc). it's probably worth checking with the match officials before planning on shooting a non-divisional compliant gun that you plan to get bumped to open with the hope of still taking out overall. I don't think they'll allow that. otherwise guys might as well just shoot a full blown open gun, get bumped to open and win the CO nats with an open gun...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. I guess it depends on what 'available' means. People got bumped to Open at Prod Nats, for loading past 10 rounds (or whatever), even though you obviously couldn't declare for Open at the outset of the match. Edited January 25, 2016 by NickBlasta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I don't care about regular matches where people show up with guns not offered in the match. My concern is people showing up to shoot a national match for a PROVISIONAL division that needs to generate some serious numbers to succeed. Showing up with anything but a true CO gun should not be counted towards true numbers in attendance. You are assuming it will be provisional come August Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGus Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Kevin, I think you're in favor of PCC, but obviously hate CO. What do you see as the difference? New division, people having fun shooting guns, happy, happy, happy.I just can't get behind CO when we already have open division. I have always seen it that way. No it doesn't hurt me. I have been called a hater from day one yet I get chastised for joking and using WO which I copied by the way. All that does is reenergize my contempt for it. It just doesn't make sense to me when guys say open is too expensive yet I can buy 2 RTS2 for what some guys are spending on an optic to put on a $500 gun. I bought a P320 for $480, an optic mount for $42, Burris FastFire 3 for $212 delivered, Bladetech DOH for $62 and 3 additional mags for $108 delivered. I already had mag holders that fit and the belt. For $904 I'm completely set to compete in CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrmblr Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 While I don't care about the Division personally, I find it odd that it doesn't seem to have been created so that people with this type of gun (Rev, SS, Open, etc...) now have a place to play. The guns are being created that conform to rules in a Division. Would these guns, as described in the rules, have been built otherwise? Not that this doesn't happen in other equipment based sports like racing, it's just a departure from business as usual for USPSA. If CO allowed the plastic-fantastic face-shooter specials that most slide ride optic guns out there are... Then I wouldn't question the evolution of a new Division. JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 S&W, Glock, and FNH all made guns that had an option for a slide mounted optic BEFORE the division was accepted by the BOD.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 S&W, Glock, and FNH all made guns that had an option for a slide mounted optic BEFORE the division was accepted by the BOD.. That is why they lobbied for the new division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrmblr Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 S&W, Glock, and FNH all made guns that had an option for a slide mounted optic BEFORE the division was accepted by the BOD..Yes, but those were not usually being used in the configuration outlined in the rules. Most were chopped, stippled, and laser/light added. Not quite what we are seeing for CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 S&W, Glock, and FNH all made guns that had an option for a slide mounted optic BEFORE the division was accepted by the BOD..Yes, but those were not usually being used in the configuration outlined in the rules. Most were chopped, stippled, and laser/light added. Not quite what we are seeing for CO. Haven't seen a tactical Timmy using a laser yet, will be interesting if they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 That is why they lobbied for the new division. And some members did too. I lobbied for it because I saw the potential for new members and a cheaper option for those with bad vision than a $4K Open gun. I backed up that lobbying by buying and shooting a gun that matched my proposal, I shot it from mid 2014 including A3 and part of a Nationals. I doubt that S&W made the M&P Core just for USPSA, as there was no division for it back then. I suspect they made it because they saw a potential market that would allow them a significant return on their investment. The marketing divisions of these gun manufacturers probably know more about the firearms market than anyone working for USPSA. They would not create these guns if there was no market for them, and if the is a market for those guns then shouldn't USPSA get in on the ground floor of it? By providing a place for these guns to be competitive, USPSA can help to promote those products and also seek more sponsorship opportunities from a wider variety of gun companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Yes, but those were not usually being used in the configuration outlined in the rules. Most were chopped, stippled, and laser/light added. Not quite what we are seeing for CO. The ones made by S&W and Glock were exactly the same as their Production guns but with the addition of a removable plate for the scope. So they are being shipped from the factory in a configuration that EXACTLY matches the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGus Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Bottom line is it's just a game; a competition. Most of us aren't going to win any major titles. We compete in the sport for fun. Sure, we also pick up many pistol skills. But this isn't a life or death situation. It's just a game. And gamer's are going to game it. We all want to be as competitive as we can within the rules. Other than LE or a handful of competitors, most people aren't using their carry/home defense gun as their comp gun. So the argument that CO shooters don't really carry their CO gun doesn't really matter. How many people carry their OPEN, LTD, PRD, SS, or REV? Yes, there are some that use their comp gun as their carry gun. But it's a small handful of people. The vast majority of us have dedicated comp guns, regardless of division, that while they may push the limits, they do fall within the rules. Why shouldn't CO be any different? It's a game. Gamer's are going to game it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 You shoot Production NATS-Why not stay and shoot CO?. Your only out another night at the hotel and entry fee right!. I believe you should meet the meet the requirements of the Division--Slide mounted optic!. If not, you shoot for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I don't care about regular matches where people show up with guns not offered in the match. My concern is people showing up to shoot a national match for a PROVISIONAL division that needs to generate some serious numbers to succeed. Showing up with anything but a true CO gun should not be counted towards true numbers in attendance. A "true CO gun" = anything that is compliant with USPSA CO division rules, right? Correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Kevin, I think you're in favor of PCC, but obviously hate CO. What do you see as the difference? New division, people having fun shooting guns, happy, happy, happy.I just can't get behind CO when we already have open division. I have always seen it that way. No it doesn't hurt me. I have been called a hater from day one yet I get chastised for joking and using WO which I copied by the way. All that does is reenergize my contempt for it. It just doesn't make sense to me when guys say open is too expensive yet I can buy 2 RTS2 for what some guys are spending on an optic to put on a $500 gun. I bought a P320 for $480, an optic mount for $42, Burris FastFire 3 for $212 delivered, Bladetech DOH for $62 and 3 additional mags for $108 delivered. I already had mag holders that fit and the belt. For $904 I'm completely set to compete in CO. That's great but SOME are spending upwards of what, $700 for the latest and greatest optic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBlasta Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 I believe you should meet the meet the requirements of the Division--Slide mounted optic!. If not, you shoot for fun. That's the thing, it's an option. An optic is allowed, not required. The thread (at least originally) is about shooting a gun over CO's weight limit. There'd be nothing stopping you shooting your G34 with irons on top in both Nats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I don't care about regular matches where people show up with guns not offered in the match. My concern is people showing up to shoot a national match for a PROVISIONAL division that needs to generate some serious numbers to succeed. Showing up with anything but a true CO gun should not be counted towards true numbers in attendance. A "true CO gun" = anything that is compliant with USPSA CO division rules, right? Correct Your answer ("correct", above) means that you don't object to a CO competitor at a L2/L3 ("national match") using a non-optic (iron sights only) gun that is CO division compliant (CO doesn't have a requirement of an optic, right?). From some of your other posts, I was (possibly mistakenly?) under the impression that you were against CO participation by guns that are CO compliant and are non-optic. I'm just checking - maybe my initial impression of your position was wrong, or maybe you didn't actually mean what you said ("correct", above), or maybe your position has changed? Respectfully, ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) I don't care about regular matches where people show up with guns not offered in the match. My concern is people showing up to shoot a national match for a PROVISIONAL division that needs to generate some serious numbers to succeed. Showing up with anything but a true CO gun should not be counted towards true numbers in attendance. A "true CO gun" = anything that is compliant with USPSA CO division rules, right? Correct Your answer ("correct", above) means that you don't object to a CO competitor at a L2/L3 ("national match") using a non-optic (iron sights only) gun that is CO division compliant (CO doesn't have a requirement of an optic, right?). From some of your other posts, I was (possibly mistakenly?) under the impression that you were against CO participation by guns that are CO compliant and are non-optic. I'm just checking - maybe my initial impression of your position was wrong, or maybe you didn't actually mean what you said ("correct", above), or maybe your position has changed? Respectfully, ac Oops. I meant Not correct. But I only object because it's artificially bumping the numbers which would help move it from provisional to legit. If only guns set up for CO( with an optic) are allowed it would be a much better gauge of interest in the division. Edited January 26, 2016 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 There is usually an equipment survey at Nationals. If they add an option to specify the type of sight to that survey then they will know how many people shot the match with a dot versus conventional iron sights. Or, they could ask for that information on the entry form, which may be a better solution. As the match is only a one-day affair then this would allow the organizers to give preference to those that wanted to shoot using a red dot before opening the match up to those that wanted to shoot iron sights, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 At USPSA Handgun limited Nationals there was an equipment survey I had to fill out as part of registration, one question was what type of sights, another one was who the manufacturer was. They wanted quite a bit of information, even if I reloaded,the manufacturer of the press, powder, projectiles etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 It would be interesting to see SS/Revo and Prod/CO nationals held the same way as Open/L10. Pick a division and shoot the match. I think both Revo and CO would have very little participation (and I say that as a fan of CO.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I'm in favor of three back to back Nationals, I've posted this before.... Classic Nationals : Single Stack & Revolver Factory Nationls : Production & Carry Optics Custom Nationals : Open & Limited / L10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I'm in favor of three back to back Nationals, I've posted this before.... Classic Nationals : Single Stack & Revolver Factory Nationls : Production & Carry Optics Custom Nationals : Open & Limited / L10 Would there be enough shooter interest to shoot carry optics in nationals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I think there could be with the proper marketing, I suspect the numbers will be low this first year but a solid match report and lots of good photos/videos might encourage more participants in 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 I think there could be with the proper marketing, I suspect the numbers will be low this first year but a solid match report and lots of good photos/videos might encourage more participants in 2017. I didn't see any professional photographers at USPSA limited Nationals, they had over 300 shooters there for limited division, USPSA didn't do much if anything to showcase their premier event of the year. I hope the new president will change this. I have been to and been involved with spearfishing tournaments with better coverage and attention. The way they handled the prizes is terrible, no return on investment to the people donating prizes, I heard a nice gun was given away to the winner but it wasn't on display, I have no idea who built it and donated it. If I donated a gun or other prize, I would want people to know about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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