Increasing participation

[Chills1994]

My recommendation(s) would be:

A. don't have dedicated squads with a dedicated start time. just put it out there in an email or on the club's website that sign up is between 7AM and 9AM, and shooting can start any time after 8AM. So 5, 6, or 7 buddies can all text each other during the week and figure out that they will squad together, so they all car pool together or they show up at the same time. Then let these UNformal squads float from whatever open or empty stage, or whatever stage has the shortest line, to the next stage which is either unoccupied or has the shortest line. People are like electricity, they will pick the path of least resistance on their own

we have open squadding for our weeknight steel matches, and people invariably seem to pile up at one stage at the same time and not be aware that other stages with much less wait are available. I predict the same would happen in the system you describe.

It's not really an issue for us in uspsa locally (yet) because we have 6 bays, so we are capable of handling 60-70 people with reasonable squad sizes and it usually takes about 4 hours to do the shooting. not too bad for 6 stages imho.

It might not be unreasonable tho to have 1 squad start early on one of the field courses while we finish setting up the last 1 or 2 stages. That would let us add a squad without making them start on the classifier.

And of course we can always raise the price (which is already cheap) and comp entries for anyone that shows up early to set up.

The one range/club that I shot at which had open squadding and show up any time had kind of a range set up like this:

---I

I---

---I

I---

---I

I---

where the " I " part was this central road, and the " ---" represented the bays the stages were set up in. So as a squad, you had the choice of staying on the same side of the road, going to the next bay/stage, or you could cross the road to get to a bay/stage that was empty.

To me at least, it seemed to run pretty fast and efficiently.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Perhaps something like this thread will come up on a different forum where USPSA policy makers will actually see it.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[d_striker]

My favorite match in our area regularly has 75 people spread over 4 squads in nice weather.

18-19 people per squad sounds like an awful lot. Do you just have a limited number of bays you can use, or what is the reason for such a ginormous squad?

Limited bays and I'm assuming limited props.

And yes, 20 person squads at this match is brutal.

[Chills1994]

way....way off topic....

I think I have brought it up this idea before I had for an electronic scoring system...and it kinda relates to my option A above as far as making that viable.

The idea popped into my head after seeing the laser scanning iPhones the Home Depot employees use to scan an item that you the customer just took off the shelf and you are wondering if they have any more in stock.

And I combined that with when my mom went to the hospital. Everybody who came into the room, first scanned the bar code bracelet on her wrist, asked her name and birthday, and then proceeded to take vitals or draw blood.

Instead of having people pre-register online for each local match in order to have the Kindles or whatever other scoring gadget there is pre-loaded before match day, have them already in the system at the start of the shooting season. Print them out a barcode bracelet or a bar code key fob. When the shooters show up to a match, they put their bard code bracelet or hang the bar code key fob off their belts.

Then at the stage, there would be a combination timer, laser scanner, and score entering gadget. The RO asks, "Okay, who is my first shooter?" Somebody just steps up to the line. The RO scans the shooters bar code bracelet or bar code key fob. On the timer's screen it would display "Jim Bob Smith, A6969, Master, Production, is this correct?" RO hits the "yes" button. Then he gives the LAMR command. Jim Bob shoots the stage in 21.12 seconds, and that automatically gets entered. Then the CRO can hand it off to the scorekeeper. The CRO calls out "Two Alpha, One alpha, one charlie, two alpha....and so on" and the scorekeeper presses the buttons for those scores. This laser scoring gadget stays at the stage, and it knows it is...say...the Stage 4 scoring gadget. It already knows there 8 paper targets and 4 steel.

That's my idea for getting away from dedicated squads of 15 people who have to likely stay all squadded together because that is how the electronic scoring info got entered into that one Kindle or Blackberry or iPad

[motosapiens]

My favorite match in our area regularly has 75 people spread over 4 squads in nice weather.

18-19 people per squad sounds like an awful lot. Do you just have a limited number of bays you can use, or what is the reason for such a ginormous squad?

Limited bays and I'm assuming limited props.

And yes, 20 person squads at this match is brutal.

I can imagine. I would probably just do something else..... or I'd volunteer to MD the afternoon shift and put everything away and we could break it up into squads of 10.

[motosapiens]

That's my idea for getting away from dedicated squads of 15 people who have to likely stay all squadded together because that is how the electronic scoring info got entered into that one Kindle or Blackberry or iPad

for our steel matches, we just don't have squads. nooks and timers stay on the stage. People go wherever the line is shortest (if they are smart). it takes like 4 seconds to find someone in the alphabetized list of 50 shooters while the shooter is making ready.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

That's my idea for getting away from dedicated squads of 15 people who have to likely stay all squadded together because that is how the electronic scoring info got entered into that one Kindle or Blackberry or iPad

for our steel matches, we just don't have squads. nooks and timers stay on the stage. People go wherever the line is shortest (if they are smart). it takes like 4 seconds to find someone in the alphabetized list of 50 shooters while the shooter is making ready.

How well do you think this format would work for a USPSA match?

Let's say with comped match fees for a set up and tear down crew.

[motosapiens]

That's my idea for getting away from dedicated squads of 15 people who have to likely stay all squadded together because that is how the electronic scoring info got entered into that one Kindle or Blackberry or iPad

for our steel matches, we just don't have squads. nooks and timers stay on the stage. People go wherever the line is shortest (if they are smart). it takes like 4 seconds to find someone in the alphabetized list of 50 shooters while the shooter is making ready.

How well do you think this format would work for a USPSA match?

Let's say with comped match fees for a set up and tear down crew.

that's a good question. The main issue for uspsa is that RO-ing requires much more knowledge and experience than it does for steel challenge. How do we ensure there is a qualified RO available for everyone, both for safety and for competitive equity?

as it is for steel, I can tell you that it eventually becomes burdensome on the MD who wants to show up early to give people the opportunity to shoot early, but who then ends up staying until dark every single week.

I suspect that not very long after one leaves the arena of 'all volunteer sport where everyone except the same handful slackers helps do everything' one gets to the point where people start complaining about match fees.

[StealthyBlagga]

That's my idea for getting away from dedicated squads of 15 people who have to likely stay all squadded together because that is how the electronic scoring info got entered into that one Kindle or Blackberry or iPad

for our steel matches, we just don't have squads. nooks and timers stay on the stage. People go wherever the line is shortest (if they are smart). it takes like 4 seconds to find someone in the alphabetized list of 50 shooters while the shooter is making ready.

How well do you think this format would work for a USPSA match?

Let's say with comped match fees for a set up and tear down crew.

It works FANTASTIC... this is exactly how we run all our matches at Rio Salado.

[motosapiens]

It works FANTASTIC... this is exactly how we run all our matches at Rio Salado.

what do you do for RO's? does the md and/or RO's have to stay all day? what are the time parameters for the match? what is the entry fee?

Edited January 20, 2016 by motosapiens

[sperman]

I've always wanted to shoot a USPSA match with open squadding, just to see how it would work. I know there are parts of the country who do it successfully. Around here, I think you would struggle finding RO's willing to give up the day just to hold the timer at a L1 match. I don't think many people would hang around for tear down either.

[kevin c]

At my range our two USPSA matches per month can get 100, occasionally up to 120 shooters in good weather, and that is on five bays.

The only way we have been able to do that is to have the match run over two days. Having a dedicated range allows us to set up Saturday afternoon for shooters that make up a quarter or a bit more of the total for the weekend. The rest shoot Sunday, and it is still a very long day with 18 - 20 shooters per squad.

Of the other venues I shoot regularly, two have capped registration, and are often hard for me to get into.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

At my range our two USPSA matches per month can get 100, occasionally up to 120 shooters in good weather, and that is on five bays.

The only way we have been able to do that is to have the match run over two days. Having a dedicated range allows us to set up Saturday afternoon for shooters that make up a quarter or a bit more of the total for the weekend. The rest shoot Sunday, and it is still a very long day with 18 - 20 shooters per squad.

Of the other venues I shoot regularly, two have capped registration, and are often hard for me to get into.

And California shows a vision of the apocalypse.

Yay, let's get lots more shooters so this can be our fate!

[StealthyBlagga]

It works FANTASTIC... this is exactly how we run all our matches at Rio Salado.

what do you do for RO's? does the md and/or RO's have to stay all day? what are the time parameters for the match? what is the entry fee?

Here is how it works:

* When each shooter arrives at the stage, they put their card on the bottom of the clipboard pile.

* Two shooters who are awaiting their turn to shoot will already be officiating - one on the clock, one on the iPad. Everyone else is taping and brassing.

* When one of the ad hoc officials come up on the clipboard (say "in the deep hole"), their duty is handed off to a shooter at the bottom of the pile.

* Rinse and repeat.

Obviously the folks officiating are not always certified ROs, so this only works for a Level 1 match. When a new person takes the clock, the previous RO will verify that they know what they are doing... if not, we put them on the iPad and find someone who knows their business (we are blessed with a huge number of very experienced ROs at our club). This generally works very well, and it gives the newer shooters an opportunity to learn ROing on the job. There are always plenty of more experienced ROs to help educate the newbies on the rules, but as an experienced RO I find the whole experience much less stressful than when I am the permanent RO at a match with formal squadding.

In the winter our matches start at 8am, and we can typically push 80-100 shooters through four ~32 round field stages in about 4 hours. The MD and setup crew build the match the previous afternoon, and are normally off the range by early/mid-afternoon.

Entry fee is $15 for members, $17 for non-members.

Edited January 20, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[kevin c]

StealthyBlagga:

Do you have back up problems with folks coming in big bunches? We have people who really want to shoot together. By itself, that's fine (I like shooting with my friends too), but sometimes though, they are more interested in the social aspect of an afternoon together than the shooting, and slow things down considerably.

[ChuckS]

StealthyBlagga:

Do you have back up problems with folks coming in big bunches? We have people who really want to shoot together. By itself, that's fine (I like shooting with my friends too), but sometimes though, they are more interested in the social aspect of an afternoon together than the shooting, and slow things down considerably.

We have the same issue down south. Your match that you start at 0800 sharp, could finish at 1045 or 1300 depending on your stage selection and luck. Get stuck behind a large squad and add an hour to your time. What we do is open squadding but I call it pseudo-open squadding because the group sizes vary widely. That mixed with a squad heavy on new shooters (please do not send MORE!) can really trip you up.

In contrast, I have shot Tuesday Night Steel at Rio a few times. It seems (at least to me) that the group size is more consistent and reasonable. You can run that 4 stage match twice in an afternoon/evening with 150 other shooters. Part of it, I guess, is that efficiency is the mother of invention at Rio due to the fact that you really don't want to be hanging out waiting to shoot for a good portion of the year!

In retrospect, at any event that I have gone to in the last decade, the last thing on my mind was "we need more shooters"!

[Ultimo-Hombre]

It works FANTASTIC... this is exactly how we run all our matches at Rio Salado.

what do you do for RO's? does the md and/or RO's have to stay all day? what are the time parameters for the match? what is the entry fee?

Here is how it works:

* When each shooter arrives at the stage, they put their card on the bottom of the clipboard pile.

* Two shooters who are awaiting their turn to shoot will already be officiating - one on the clock, one on the iPad. Everyone else is taping and brassing.

* When one of the ad hoc officials come up on the clipboard (say "in the deep hole"), their duty is handed off to a shooter at the bottom of the pile.

* Rinse and repeat.

Obviously the folks officiating are not always certified ROs, so this only works for a Level 1 match. When a new person takes the clock, the previous RO will verify that they know what they are doing... if not, we put them on the iPad and find someone who knows their business (we are blessed with a huge number of very experienced ROs at our club). This generally works very well, and it gives the newer shooters an opportunity to learn ROing on the job. There are always plenty of more experienced ROs to help educate the newbies on the rules, but as an experienced RO I find the whole experience much less stressful than when I am the permanent RO at a match with formal squadding.

In the winter our matches start at 8am, and we can typically push 80-100 shooters through four ~32 round field stages in about 4 hours. The MD and setup crew build the match the previous afternoon, and are normally off the range by early/mid-afternoon.

Entry fee is $15 for members, $17 for non-members.

Looks like the weak link for others is that very deep experience pool that you have. It sounds like the majority of your match participants have at least a rudimentary understanding of RO responsibilities.

[StealthyBlagga]

StealthyBlagga:

Do you have back up problems with folks coming in big bunches? We have people who really want to shoot together. By itself, that's fine (I like shooting with my friends too), but sometimes though, they are more interested in the social aspect of an afternoon together than the shooting, and slow things down considerably.

Yes, it happens, but usually just 3 or 4 folks... we rarely see huge groups wanting to shoot together. In general our approach does not seem to slow things down. As Chuck mentioned, the heat most of the year tends to motivate everyone to get done timely. Sometimes a stage runs slow because of stage design (as an MD, I am as guilty of this as anyone), but not necessarily because of the unsquadded nature of the event.

In retrospect, at any event that I have gone to in the last decade, the last thing on my mind was "we need more shooters"!

I hear what you are saying - I absolutely LOVE it when I stumble on a match with a very low turnout so I can enjoy shooting the whole match super-fast. Around here this usually only happens when there is a major match at an adjacent range.

Unfortunately, this is one of those situations where the interests of the individual shooter don't necessarily coincide with the interests of the sport. If we don't attract at least as many new shooters as we lose by attrition, the sport dies. If our current MDs burn out and there is nobody to step up to the plate, the sport dies. If we don't evolve, we risk atrophy.

As gun ownership flourishes in the US, the practical shooting sports are enjoying high levels of interest. Rather than trying to cap participation to keep things the way they have always been, I would prefer USPSA search for creative ways of meeting the increased demand. That kind of leadership is what we should expect from our national governing organization.

[Nimitz]

And the last few posts shows the issue. Instead of a blind push to "grow the sport" for the sake of numbers USPSA should first examine ways to make things better at our current levels (both numbers of shooters and level of growth). Increasing numbers with the same problems we run into with current numbers is what really causes issues.

Anyone have Foley's email?

PM me ....

[Nimitz]

And the last few posts shows the issue. Instead of a blind push to "grow the sport" for the sake of numbers USPSA should first examine ways to make things better at our current levels (both numbers of shooters and level of growth). Increasing numbers with the same problems we run into with current numbers is what really causes issues.

Anyone have Foley's email?

...........

Edited January 21, 2016 by Nimitz

[StealthyBlagga]

Looks like the weak link for others is that very deep experience pool that you have. It sounds like the majority of your match participants have at least a rudimentary understanding of RO responsibilities.

It's the classic "chicken and egg" situation. We got where we are by pushing people beyond their comfort zone and handing them the clock. If only a small group of folks ever hold the clock, that cadre is never going to grow.

[bradsteimel]

I've never had the opportunity to participate in a match run that way, but think it sounds amazing!! Would probably be a cluster-mess the first few times without someone with experience overseeing it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Chills1994]

I've always wanted to shoot a USPSA match with open squadding, just to see how it would work. I know there are parts of the country who do it successfully. Around here, I think you would struggle finding RO's willing to give up the day just to hold the timer at a L1 match. I don't think many people would hang around for tear down either.

The one club/range that I am talking about where it was like open squadding and floating from stage to stage also did NOT have dedicated RO's standing there at the stage(s) waiting for you and your buddies to show up. Somebody in your group or clique of buddies would grab the timer. Another buddy would grab the scoresheets and clipboard. Whoever was left who was not the "at bat" shooter grabbed a box of pasters.

EDIT: as we all know, you aren't required to have certified RO's at a Level 1 match.

EDIT#2: the range/club I am talking about set up Saturday mornings. Then some of the local people shot Saturday afternoon. This range/club was maybe 90minutes to two hours away. My "home" range at the time had/has a steel match on that Saturday. We would go on Sunday to their USPSA match 2 hours away. I am sure having the locals shoot on Saturday alleviated any crowding we would have seen on Sunday.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Chills1994

[Sarge]

Don't need to certification for level I. Do we really want that to be common practice though? We're pretty blessed around here as damn near everybody is certified it seems

[kevin c]

I agree with StealthyBlagga that getting new blood is essential not only to expand the sport, but also for maintaining what we have. I think most of us know clubs that have faded when the principal MD's and stage building RO's burn out. That needs to be avoided by recruiting and grooming the next generation that will carry the individual clubs forward. It is also those same people that will be the next generation to run the national organization that many here want to be responsive to the current and future needs of the shooters and the sport. I also feel that inspiring a personal passion for shooting (and I think it safe to say that most here will agree to loving what we do) can lead to individuals advocating our points of view on state wide and national venues, because it means more when its personal (but enough on that because I don't want to get the thread closed).

For the sake of the sport, then, drawing new shooters is essential. That being said, I have to concede that, beyond a certain point, broader participation not only draws those that we want (the contributors to the sport), but also some that we don't always welcome (the consumers, who just shoot and go, the way most folks will ski or play tennis, play pick up basketball or participate in local league sports on a casual basis.

Still, the bigger we are, the better overall, for the reasons mentioned above.

Edited January 21, 2016 by kevin c