Shotgun tube restrictions

[Benelli Chick]

How do you go about enforcing a rule that stipulates a tube can mechanically only hold X amount of rounds?

So in addition to that you would also need to police the length of the shells that the shooter is also using?

Blue Ridge has always been a "maximum capacity 8+1" rule set. It's easy to check any tubes that are suspicious by grabbing any box of 2 3/4" shells and seeing if the tube will hold more than 8. If it does, it's OPEN for the competitor.

I haven't seen any autoloaders that will run on the boutique short shells. Most pump guns won't even cycle them. I also haven't seen anyone at a major using these type of shells. There were a couple Russians at the Pan Am in 2013 that were using a 2 5/16" or so Slug, but I've never seen these available in the US.

What rules is the match at Blue Ridge run under?

Andy's rules!

Best way I saw to enforce was at Ft. Benning back when. They had 8 in the tube only rule. RO's had whole squad put 8 rounds on the table and preload together. Then...there was a questionable tube...shooter had been filmed shooting 12 the year before with no reload...the RO asked for a 9th round, shoved it into the gun and declared "welcome to Open."

Edited to add: one of those famous 3-Gun moments people are still talking about!

Edited January 28, 2016 by Benelli Chick

[Stlhead]

Question how much of a problem is it down there? Do you really think shooters are cheating that much. If you think you had a cheater watch them more closely and DQ and ban them from future matches if you suspect it was intentional

when they are caught. Problem solved they will be an example.

It is not the shooters job to monitor and or enforce the rules on other shooters. The last thing we need is all of the shooters trying to snitch and tattle on other shooters. We need rules that are easy to enforce and that discourage purposeful and accidental cheating. People have asked why if I know that people had started with too many shells I did not raise an alarm, because it was not my place to do so. A competitors part is to do his or her best and have a good time in a safe manner, not to try and find fault with other competitors actions. The RO's and match officials have the job of doing what they can to see that everyone has a safe and entertaining match. I consider having a good ruleset and seeing that they are enforced to a reasonable standard as a part of making a match entertaining.

Enforcement of a max capacity rule is pretty easy, tube length restriction is also a breeze. Removal of the capacity restriction is even easier to enforce. Again, I would be for any of the mentioned solutions.

I did not post this thread with any particular match in mind. If the ideas that have been discussed in this thread gain no traction and nothing changes I will not loose any sleep and it will not effect my attendance or performance at any matches. I figure if we are going through the trouble of having matches and coming up with rules they should be as easy to enforce and fair as possible.

[bret]

Question how much of a problem is it down there? Do you really think shooters are cheating that much. If you think you had a cheater watch them more closely and DQ and ban them from future matches if you suspect it was intentional

when they are caught. Problem solved they will be an example.

It is not the shooters job to monitor and or enforce the rules on other shooters. The last thing we need is all of the shooters trying to snitch and tattle on other shooters. We need rules that are easy to enforce and that discourage purposeful and accidental cheating. People have asked why if I know that people had started with too many shells I did not raise an alarm, because it was not my place to do so. A competitors part is to do his or her best and have a good time in a safe manner, not to try and find fault with other competitors actions. The RO's and match officials have the job of doing what they can to see that everyone has a safe and entertaining match. I consider having a good ruleset and seeing that they are enforced to a reasonable standard as a part of making a match entertaining.

Enforcement of a max capacity rule is pretty easy, tube length restriction is also a breeze. Removal of the capacity restriction is even easier to enforce. Again, I would be for any of the mentioned solutions.

I did not post this thread with any particular match in mind. If the ideas that have been discussed in this thread gain no traction and nothing changes I will not loose any sleep and it will not effect my attendance or performance at any matches. I figure if we are going through the trouble of having matches and coming up with rules they should be as easy to enforce and fair as possible.

In the local matches we self R.O. people on the squad take turns running shooters and keeping score.

Problem is some guy's are a Not certified range officer's and even some that are don't know the rules.

One match guys thought load to division capacity means I had to load 8 + 1, said I should get a procedural for not loading to division capacity.

Division capacity in USPSA Multigun rules and 3 Gun Nation rules is maximum, not minimum, but guys are trying to enforce rules that don't exist.

Edited January 28, 2016 by bret

[Alaskapopo]

Question how much of a problem is it down there? Do you really think shooters are cheating that much. If you think you had a cheater watch them more closely and DQ and ban them from future matches if you suspect it was intentional

when they are caught. Problem solved they will be an example.

It is not the shooters job to monitor and or enforce the rules on other shooters. The last thing we need is all of the shooters trying to snitch and tattle on other shooters. We need rules that are easy to enforce and that discourage purposeful and accidental cheating. People have asked why if I know that people had started with too many shells I did not raise an alarm, because it was not my place to do so. A competitors part is to do his or her best and have a good time in a safe manner, not to try and find fault with other competitors actions. The RO's and match officials have the job of doing what they can to see that everyone has a safe and entertaining match. I consider having a good ruleset and seeing that they are enforced to a reasonable standard as a part of making a match entertaining.

Enforcement of a max capacity rule is pretty easy, tube length restriction is also a breeze. Removal of the capacity restriction is even easier to enforce. Again, I would be for any of the mentioned solutions.

I did not post this thread with any particular match in mind. If the ideas that have been discussed in this thread gain no traction and nothing changes I will not loose any sleep and it will not effect my attendance or performance at any matches. I figure if we are going through the trouble of having matches and coming up with rules they should be as easy to enforce and fair as possible.

I was talking about the RO's and scorekeepers not the shooters. Even so if you think you have cheaters I would not want them there. Make an example of them when caught.

Pat

[Stlhead]

Again, it is not my job as a shooter to punish the guilty and or make examples of them. Right now there is nothing stopping anyone from overfilling their tubes at many of the matches I attend. As there is nothing keeping people from doing it and no good way to determine who has done it after the fact we have a rule that is not being enforced and therefore only applies to the guys that choose to abide by it. Even if after a stage an RO suspected a shooter had overfilled his tube the chances he could prove it would be slim and he would not have time to mess with it anyway. I am certain that at local matches where guys are supervised at the preload table and the stages are shorter and simpler it is easy to tell who put too many in. At the matches I go to it is not so easy to tell sometimes.

I am still waiting for a cogent argument that contends the current system is superior to to either of the three proposed systems.

[bret]

Again, it is not my job as a shooter to punish the guilty and or make examples of them. Right now there is nothing stopping anyone from overfilling their tubes at many of the matches I attend. As there is nothing keeping people from doing it and no good way to determine who has done it after the fact we have a rule that is not being enforced and therefore only applies to the guys that choose to abide by it. Even if after a stage an RO suspected a shooter had overfilled his tube the chances he could prove it would be slim and he would not have time to mess with it anyway. I am certain that at local matches where guys are supervised at the preload table and the stages are shorter and simpler it is easy to tell who put too many in. At the matches I go to it is not so easy to tell sometimes.

I am still waiting for a cogent argument that contends the current system is superior to to either of the three proposed systems.

If the R.O calls him on it, he bumps the guy to open, that means he is now competing against guys in Open Division with no limit on how many rounds he can start with.

We use Practiscore so its easy to change them to open, the RM and MD should be made aware of the change.

[Religious Shooter]

Not all "2 3/4"" shells are the same length.

I have several boxes of 2 3/4" BS Estate shells that will fill up my current tube to 8 only. Switch to Walmart bird that are "2 3/4"" and all of a sudden I can put 9 in the tube.

The 2 3/4" Estate shells measure 2.45" x 8 = 19.6"

The 2 3/4" Rem Gun Club shells I have on hand measure 2.33" x 8 = 18.64"

That's almost a full inch difference between two so called "2 3/4"" shells.

Are we going to need a standard shell size too to enforce a mechanical limit on the tube?

[Brian N.]

I'm fond of the 8 round tube rule for all divisions other than Open. Imagine if Production division were limited to 10 round mags before the start signal only. After the buzzer you can throw any mag you want in there? I think not!

Matches I run follow the standard tube rules (8+1 to start), because that's what shooters seem to want. I guess that makes me an outspoken minority. I do think the 3GN Pro Series should be limited to 8 rounds only, just because anyone who watches the TV show and doesn't know 3-Gun finds the shotgun tubes ridiculous and impractical (which they are).

It's not hard to check, show me 8 of your 2.75" shells, put them in the tube, if the gun will take another one, wilkommen zu öffnen!

[T Bacus]

I would like to see the rule for tac-ops go back to 8+1 only, for no reason other than I think the current guns with 10 and 12 round tubes look anything but 'tactical'. I'm not saying I think 3 gun is a practical sport but I do think a certain connection to the principle that the guns used reflect the defensive origins of the sport should be maintained. A 26" barreled shotgun with a 12 round tube is hardly that. Of course it's nothing I'm going to loose any sleep over.

[bret]

I would like to see the rule for tac-ops go back to 8+1 only, for no reason other than I think the current guns with 10 and 12 round tubes look anything but 'tactical'. I'm not saying I think 3 gun is a practical sport but I do think a certain connection to the principle that the guns used reflect the defensive origins of the sport should be maintained. A 26" barreled shotgun with a 12 round tube is hardly that. Of course it's nothing I'm going to loose any sleep over.

What is tactical about shooting 3 gun where you can have 30 pieces of steel and some flippers on a stage using a shotgun and a pistol?

It's not like someone is going to wear a,3 gun rig with their 32 rounds of shotgun shells for quad loading and 3 or 4 magazines with 23 or more rounds in them.

In anything but a 3 gun match.

It's a game, that's all.

[Alaskapopo]

Again, it is not my job as a shooter to punish the guilty and or make examples of them. Right now there is nothing stopping anyone from overfilling their tubes at many of the matches I attend. As there is nothing keeping people from doing it and no good way to determine who has done it after the fact we have a rule that is not being enforced and therefore only applies to the guys that choose to abide by it. Even if after a stage an RO suspected a shooter had overfilled his tube the chances he could prove it would be slim and he would not have time to mess with it anyway. I am certain that at local matches where guys are supervised at the preload table and the stages are shorter and simpler it is easy to tell who put too many in. At the matches I go to it is not so easy to tell sometimes.

I am still waiting for a cogent argument that contends the current system is superior to to either of the three proposed systems.

If you are the RO it is your job to make sure people comply with the rules. I am talking RO's you are talking other shooters. Sorry I just don't see the issues brought up as valid. Perhaps we have more honest people up here. Lol I am still waiting for a good argument as to why we need to fix something that is not broken.

Pat

Edited January 29, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[Stlhead]

Pat,

I am not discounting your experiences at your matches, but you are dismissing what I am experienceing at the matches I attend. Just because at your matches you can be certain of things, don't assume it is the case at other matches. There may very well not be an issue at your matches, but to argue that your local experience "up there" should make you intimately aware of the conditions at matches that you have never attended is flawed. You are in no more position to determine "what is broken" at the matches I am talking about than I am to decide what is "not broken" at your local matches.

Let me be perfectly clear, I do not give any care as to what is done at the matches I personally do not attend. My care for the purity of the sport and the consistency of the enforcement of the rules extends only as far as the matches that I care to go to. Pat I don't care what you do in Alaska, nor do I care what the local matches in my area do. I don't go them. The matches that I would love to see influenced are the following; MGM Ironman, Northwest Multigun, RM3 Gun, Montana MG, HAH. If by chance others agree that something should be changed then that would be great, but what standing would I have to even comment on a match that I did not attend? No more than others have to say what would be best for the matches they do not attend.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Stlhead

[Stlhead]

Not all "2 3/4"" shells are the same length.

I have several boxes of 2 3/4" BS Estate shells that will fill up my current tube to 8 only. Switch to Walmart bird that are "2 3/4"" and all of a sudden I can put 9 in the tube.

The 2 3/4" Estate shells measure 2.45" x 8 = 19.6"

The 2 3/4" Rem Gun Club shells I have on hand measure 2.33" x 8 = 18.64"

That's almost a full inch difference between two so called "2 3/4"" shells.

Are we going to need a standard shell size too to enforce a mechanical limit on the tube?

If the fixed tube length option was taken, or the removal of the 8+ 1 at the start with no tube length restriction option it would not matter what shell length. With the 8+1 restriction it would be with the competitors shells. Far less hassle than the day vision that would be required to enforce the rule today.

[bret]

Pat,

I am not discounting your experiences at your matches, but you are dismissing what I am experienceing at the matches I attend. Just because at your matches you can be certain of things, don't assume it is the case at other matches. There may very well not be an issue at your matches, but to argue that your local experience "up there" should make you intimately aware of the conditions at matches that you have never attended is flawed. You are in no more position to determine "what is broken" at the matches I am talking about than I am to decide what is "not broken" at your local matches.

Let me be perfectly clear, I do not give any care as to what is done at the matches I personally do not attend. My care for the purity of the sport and the consistency of the enforcement of the rules extends only as far as the matches that I care to go to. Pat I don't care what you do in Alaska, nor do I care what the local matches in my area do. I don't go them. The matches that I would love to see influenced are the following; MGM Ironman, Northwest Multigun, RM3 Gun, Montana MG, HAH. If by chance others agree that something should be changed then that would be great, but what standing would I have to even comment on a match that I did not attend? No more than others have to say what would be best for the matches they do not attend.

if I want to use my M4 Benelli with an 18 shot tube on it, and sm loaded to division capacity at the buzzer, what does it matter to anyone else?

If I have 10 shells in it before the buzzer I am on open, if 9 or less I am not.

What is wrong with people choosing what configuration they think is best for their gun?

Too many people want to control what others are doing.

We have a,set if rules and as long as people follow them,,what is the problem?

It isn't hard for the R.O.'s to count shells and see if the guy started with more than 9 shells.

We are adults, no reason to treat people like children.

[TyinTX]

A rule change to stop cheaters from cheating would seem rather useless. At major matches match officials should enforce the rules. May not be a perfect system but it would appear to work just fine as is the vast majority of the time.

I believe that simple enforceable rules concerning equipment are better than more complex rules. My personal choice would be a max tube length measured from the receiver, unlimited capacity. Pick a number for length, whatever makes you warm and fuzzy. Most people already own the enforcement tool and no need to argue about how many rounds started in the gun.

[bret]

No reason to change a rule on the maximum shell capacity.

What is next, change the capacity people can use in their production guns, make them block magazines in production and L10?

If the range officers can't count to 8 or 9 before a reload, they should not be an R.O.

[P.E. Kelley]

I have gotten lost in this thread...what was the point again?

To prevent cheating?

To make us more practical / tactical?

To make dumping the gun safer?

Cheating happens in many forms and few notice or say anything. (major when minor) (that's a double!)

Practical Tactical... it is a game, play it.

Safer...stupid happens and should be dealt with as we are supposed to do now...DQ.

Follow the rules (99% of us do) and have a great time!

[bret]

I have gotten lost in this thread...what was the point again?

To prevent cheating?

To make us more practical / tactical?

To make dumping the gun safer?

Cheating happens in many forms and few notice or say anything. (major when minor) (that's a double!)

Practical Tactical... it is a game, play it.

Safer...stupid happens and should be dealt with as we are supposed to do now...DQ.

Follow the rules (99% of us do) and have a great time!

I am not sure, maybe guys are envious some of us have a longer tube and they want us to cut some if it off so it's as small as their tube.

It really isn't the length of the tube, it's how you use it in the COF.

[Stlhead]

I have gotten lost in this thread...what was the point again?

To prevent cheating?

To make us more practical / tactical?

To make dumping the gun safer?

Cheating happens in many forms and few notice or say anything. (major when minor) (that's a double!)

Practical Tactical... it is a game, play it.

Safer...stupid happens and should be dealt with as we are supposed to do now...DQ.

Follow the rules (99% of us do) and have a great time!

Pat,

The point was that we now have a rule that is not easily enforced and as such allows people to disregard it. What is the point of a rule that is not enforced. You bring up the Major minor point, this is exactly the same. If there is no crono to enforce the rule then the rule has no meaning and people will shoot minor and call it major. At every match that has a crono stage there are still people that fail to meet major, and that is when they KNOW they will be checked. Imagine how many people shoot minor and claim major at matches that don't crono. If I shot pistol matches I would be bringing that up, fortunately I don't have the time or inclination to shoot pistol matches. I do shot 3 gun matches and feel if we have a rule it should be enforced, if it is not easy to enforce it should be dropped or modified so that it is enforceable. There are many ways this could be addressed, I am not advocating one way over another, or even the possible options I have suggested, I just want to see it addressed. In my mind it is not about being practical, but that could be argued, or being safer, which could also be argued, it is about having a rule that is not enforced, and that is unfair to those of us who do comply with it when there is no penalty for those who choose to not comply.

bret,

I understand you are somehow equating your shotgun tube to your penis. I think pretty much every reader has gotten that point. I am also happy that you are comfortable with your own tube length. I would like to suggest that you try other tube lengths as well, sometimes limiting yourself to a single tube may be depriving yourself of an experience that could be pleasant. Why don't you ask a couple of your shooting buddies to let you give their tubes a try. You may find that you prefer someone else's tube more than you enjoy your own. You may even find you enjoy many other tubes, possibly at the same time. We wont judge.

[bret]

I have gotten lost in this thread...what was the point again?

To prevent cheating?

To make us more practical / tactical?

To make dumping the gun safer?

Cheating happens in many forms and few notice or say anything. (major when minor) (that's a double!)

Practical Tactical... it is a game, play it.

Safer...stupid happens and should be dealt with as we are supposed to do now...DQ.

Follow the rules (99% of us do) and have a great time!

Pat,

The point was that we now have a rule that is not easily enforced and as such allows people to disregard it. What is the point of a rule that is not enforced. You bring up the Major minor point, this is exactly the same. If there is no crono to enforce the rule then the rule has no meaning and people will shoot minor and call it major. At every match that has a crono stage there are still people that fail to meet major, and that is when they KNOW they will be checked. Imagine how many people shoot minor and claim major at matches that don't crono. If I shot pistol matches I would be bringing that up, fortunately I don't have the time or inclination to shoot pistol matches. I do shot 3 gun matches and feel if we have a rule it should be enforced, if it is not easy to enforce it should be dropped or modified so that it is enforceable. There are many ways this could be addressed, I am not advocating one way over another, or even the possible options I have suggested, I just want to see it addressed. In my mind it is not about being practical, but that could be argued, or being safer, which could also be argued, it is about having a rule that is not enforced, and that is unfair to those of us who do comply with it when there is no penalty for those who choose to not comply.

bret,

I understand you are somehow equating your shotgun tube to your penis. I think pretty much every reader has gotten that point. I am also happy that you are comfortable with your own tube length. I would like to suggest that you try other tube lengths as well, sometimes limiting yourself to a single tube may be depriving yourself of an experience that could be pleasant. Why don't you ask a couple of your shooting buddies to let you give their tubes a try. You may find that you prefer someone else's tube more than you enjoy your own. You may even find you enjoy many other tubes, possibly at the same time. We wont judge.

Dude who is talking about penis here?

You have an unhealthy fixation on a man's junk.

Rule is easy to enforce, we count rounds just like we do in production.

A guy loads more than division capacity he goes to open.

Yes people game the system in 3 gun as well as USPSA, I have never seen chrono at a 3 gun match even though you have to meet minor power factor with your handgun, seen my share of guys shooting bunny fart loads on paper and then when they go to steel have hard time knocking it down or use a different load.

Why should the rules be changed on tunes and people now have to change tunes and buy shorter tubes?

my equipment follows the rules, so do i.

Edited January 29, 2016 by bret

[ChuckS]

Dude who is talking about pens here?

Are we going to have limits on what kind of pens we can use???

[thermobollocks]

No pens greater than 8 inches long and 2 ounces in weight. If you are writing in Production division, only replacement ink cartridges and springs are permitted. Texturing may only be applied over 1 inch of the pen body. Ink cartridges that allow the writer to produce more than 200 feet of text are forbidden. Only blue or black ink because this is a practical sport after all -- we find red and green ink not applicable toward real writing endeavors.

[bret]

No pens greater than 8 inches long and 2 ounces in weight. If you are writing in Production division, only replacement ink cartridges and springs are permitted. Texturing may only be applied over 1 inch of the pen body. Ink cartridges that allow the writer to produce more than 200 feet of text are forbidden. Only blue or black ink because this is a practical sport after all -- we find red and green ink not applicable toward real writing endeavors.

Red and Green is not allowed per USPSA for targets anyway, so that makes sense.

Since my pen is longer than 8" am I in limited or open?

[ChuckS]

No pens greater than 8 inches long and 2 ounces in weight. If you are writing in Production division, only replacement ink cartridges and springs are permitted. Texturing may only be applied over 1 inch of the pen body. Ink cartridges that allow the writer to produce more than 200 feet of text are forbidden. Only blue or black ink because this is a practical sport after all -- we find red and green ink not applicable toward real writing endeavors.

I'm am thinking that only low-case characters should be allowed in production also.

[P.E. Kelley]

I have gotten lost in this thread...what was the point again?

To prevent cheating?

To make us more practical / tactical?

To make dumping the gun safer?

Cheating happens in many forms and few notice or say anything. (major when minor) (that's a double!)

Practical Tactical... it is a game, play it.

Safer...stupid happens and should be dealt with as we are supposed to do now...DQ.

Follow the rules (99% of us do) and have a great time!

Pat,

The point was that we now have a rule that is not easily enforced and as such allows people to disregard it. What is the point of a rule that is not enforced. You bring up the Major minor point, this is exactly the same. If there is no crono to enforce the rule then the rule has no meaning and people will shoot minor and call it major. At every match that has a crono stage there are still people that fail to meet major, and that is when they KNOW they will be checked. Imagine how many people shoot minor and claim major at matches that don't crono. If I shot pistol matches I would be bringing that up, fortunately I don't have the time or inclination to shoot pistol matches. I do shot 3 gun matches and feel if we have a rule it should be enforced, if it is not easy to enforce it should be dropped or modified so that it is enforceable. There are many ways this could be addressed, I am not advocating one way over another, or even the possible options I have suggested, I just want to see it addressed. In my mind it is not about being practical, but that could be argued, or being safer, which could also be argued, it is about having a rule that is not enforced, and that is unfair to those of us who do comply with it when there is no penalty for those who choose to not comply.

bret,

I understand you are somehow equating your shotgun tube to your penis. I think pretty much every reader has gotten that point. I am also happy that you are comfortable with your own tube length. I would like to suggest that you try other tube lengths as well, sometimes limiting yourself to a single tube may be depriving yourself of an experience that could be pleasant. Why don't you ask a couple of your shooting buddies to let you give their tubes a try. You may find that you prefer someone else's tube more than you enjoy your own. You may even find you enjoy many other tubes, possibly at the same time. We wont judge.

Thank you. I get it....now.