zhunter Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Being late to this party, I will point out that Major PF out of CZ's and CZ type design guns will likely obliterate slide stops which are already the weak point in the design with Minor PF. Production is great as is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2011BLDR Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Being late to this party, I will point out that Major PF out of CZ's and CZ type design guns will likely obliterate slide stops which are already the weak point in the design with Minor PF. Production is great as is When they were popular in the early 1990's in open and limited at Major PF a lot more than slide stops were issues: Hammers Sear Sear cages Slides Frames Thumb safety Rear sights Scopes Scope mounts Comps Barrels were all parts you needed as spares in your range bag along with your back up gun. not unusual to brake one gun switch to the backup brake it and do a field repair to finish a level 1 match week in and week out. I think i still have a cracked P9 frame in the back of safe, moved all the parts ( Open and Limited setup's) to a EAA match frame and sold it to fund my first 2011 build in September 1994.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Literally no one would shoot minor if they wanted to be competitive. OK, a couple of people have mentioned this as a reason. What if Divisions were separated by minor & major? So if you shoot Production Major, you are only competing against those shooting Production Major. L10 Minor and SS Minor might get more popular too. I normally am not on the whole "watering down the competition" side of divisions, but I do think that would be way too much watering. You would definitely end up with 1 shooter in SS Major, 1 in SS minor, 1 in Revo major, minor, etc etc at local matches. Not gonna work. And, by doing that, you aren't being punished when you don't make chrono shooting a "major" division. You go minor at at Open Nationals when planning to shoot major, and you aren't gonna be happy about it. If divisions were separated by power factor then you wouldn't be getting punished for it, you would just be shooting a different nationals, against the minor shooters that registered as that. Yet again, I think this isn't good. L10 minor is not competitive with L10 major, under any circumstance that I can think of. And you know what? That's okay. There are divisions where minor is competitive, shoot one of those, or, get a major gun. SS minor is EXTREMELY competitive with SS major at many matches. If there is lots and lots of steel or the targets are more open, then yea run the minor gun and have the TWO EXTRA shots. The extra capacity is what makes it a viable choice. As soon as it is the same capacity, no way. Look at revolver. The only division where nearly everyone shoots a minor gun by choice. What makes it a viable choice over major? Two extra rounds. (two very important rounds in that case, since USPSA is built around 8 shot arrays, means no standing reloads). This idea was just recently beat into the ground on making minor in Limited competitive, by giving them 150mm magazines (for 26ish rounds instead of 23 of 9mm) or something equally ridiculous. I know shooters far better than me that can shoot Limited minor and crush us all, but they are the exception. In general, the 2 extra rounds isn't enough of a motivator to lose major scoring, when I still have 21 reloadable in my 40 mags. This is just my opinion, YMMV Oh no -- I think you'd be shooting for no score if these were separate divisions. You registered for XX Major and your ammo goes minor, well, that's not an available power factor in the division you chose. We're not going to reclassify at that point -- you'll have to deal with the equivalent of going sub-minor in current Production, i.e. shooting for fun only...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze1a Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 My 2¢; I'm thinking that Production division was created where competitors could measure their abilities with less emphasis on their firearm's. For the most part, by eliminating the arms race by limiting the equipment modifications, loads and even which pistols are allowed leveled the playing field. Additionally, way back when, most striker fired pistols were available in 9mm only so minor loads made sense. The abundance of production type pistols capable of major, as in 40 and 45 came later. Wondering though, what would be the advantage to eliminating a division? As long as there is some interest why not keep it going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 No to this... Just, please, no. It's not even funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) It's called L10, thats where you can shoot your major cal production gun. Edited December 17, 2015 by cnote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergus556 Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Uhg. Production isn't broken. Lets not fix it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cody6477 Posted December 19, 2015 Share Posted December 19, 2015 Yeah I don't see a problem with production either. Not broken = no fix required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elftech86 Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Being late to this party, I will point out that Major PF out of CZ's and CZ type design guns will likely obliterate slide stops which are already the weak point in the design with Minor PF. Production is great as is Truth. I just replaced the one in my witness limited. Broke right in half! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 The whole "8 round major vs 10 round minor" idea isn't competitive. In Limited, with a S_I frame you can get about 20 rounds of .40 major or about 24 rounds of 9x19 minor, but virtually nobody who chooses to shoot minor is competitive. Leave production alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 The whole "8 round major vs 10 round minor" idea isn't competitive. In Limited, with a S_I frame you can get about 20 rounds of .40 major or about 24 rounds of 9x19 minor, but virtually nobody who chooses to shoot minor is competitive. Leave production alone. 24 vs 21 is TOTALLY different from 8 vs 10. I agree with you that minor is not competive in limited, but it seems pretty obvious to me from major match results other than nationals that 10 round minor is not only competitive, but may have advantages in SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 PRODUCTION will not change! Your wasting brain cells thinking about it. Don't think Minor versus Major scoring. EVERYONE in production Division is scored the same. Production is an extremely popular Division as it stands today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Reading this whole thing a different way, the "rewarding" of people willing to deal with the recoil of major, especially when wanting to keep ammo levels the same puzzles me. Is dealing with recoil such a nobel gesture that it needs that much of a scoring advantage? A LEVEL playing field, sure. But as it is now, it's a significant advantage.Not specifically speaking of Production here, but being that there is such an advantage to shooting major, especially if ammo is restricted more than what will simply fit in the gun, I'm betting there is a ratio (certainly larger than capacity of the guns) that would make it much more of an even match between Min and Maj. Maybe (in the case of L10 and a thought for Prod) that would be 7 rounds Maj vs. 10 Min... maybe 8, maybe 6. But being it would only LEVEL the playing field, I doubt it would draw a lot of existing shooter to those classes....MAYBE production for new competitors as they might have an otherwise Prod legal gun but in .40-.45. I wouldn't want to discourage them from shooting Production, but I wouldn't want major to be an advantage either. I'm GUESSING that the scoring system as it is was an attempt to balance Major vs. Minor. Either that attempt has failed, or someone wanted the Major guns to have an ADVANTAGE, not a level playing field. I'd like to see the results of a Minor15/Major10 in a production class. Barring that (for the freedom challenged states) Minor10/Major7 in a Prod class. Hell, might even draw in some revo shooters... even if they still would be at a significant disadvantage...it's still closer. I'm not looking to change Prod... just want to see how the scoring would balance out. To someone on the outside looking in, it the rules seem to push as many as possible to shoot major where both scoring methods are used, not level the field to make it fair for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 I'd like to see the results of a Minor15/Major10 in a production class. I'm not in favor of making any changes to production, but that is certainly an interesting idea for an outlaw match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Exactly, Would just like to see what ratio actually balances it so there is not 1 clear PF that one needs to run to be competitive.Not looking to change Prod. Like you said, this would be a cool outlaw match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 just thinking out loud here, wouldn't it be more of a test to have a 16 minor, 10 major division so you can shoot 2 positions with the minor gun? Just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) just thinking out loud here, wouldn't it be more of a test to have a 16 minor, 10 major division so you can shoot 2 positions with the minor gun? Just wondering. If you have boring and unimaginative stage designers, maybe. I find it's not that often that I shoot 8 rounds in 1 spot twice in a row, and unless there's no steel or partials, I'm probably not going to risk going to 16 rounds if there's any kind of movement between positions. Edited January 29, 2016 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Theoretical discussions are fun, but Production is here to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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