outerlimits Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 You can pick up some of the older Lenny Magill videos and see some of the high tech parts Let's see...then there's my buddy Blake that's been in the sport way too long and actually has a CMC GunRacer pistol in immaculate condition. Just never shoots it and didn't that much when he had it as he picked up a couple of Limcats quickly after. Rich rich-yer way too young to remember 1/2 this stuff. blake's gunracer-that was good old kirby's company. heck, i have one of the original chip mccormick frames-still runs. serial #23! and i don't even wanna talk about before that. let's see, started with one of them AMT long slides-hahahaha-then, had plaxco build me a real gun. then, well, i won't go there...actually can't remember... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Butch, Thanks for the compliment. You're not that much older than me. See you in July brotha! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Butch,Thanks for the compliment. You're not that much older than me. See you in July brotha! Rich not much older, eh? ok, what was your draft number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 The 140/170mm magazines became legal in the early 90's andthe rule was changed so that the Caspian and CMC frames would be legal for use and have enough capacity to be competitive with the P-9/EAA. Someone asked for a picture of my old Mac's modified frame that was converted from a single stack to a hi cap using S&W 459 magazines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 I remember discussions amongst my squad at the WSX in Bisley about the magazine length. P9's were the gun of the moment. But the Chip McCormick hi-cap 1911 were getting into UK around that time. I had one of them, basically just the same as a STI/SVI. It was the replacement for my Springfield P9. I wish I had kept pictures of that old P9 it was a great gun. I still have photos of the CMC gun, which is now a manhole cover in UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Lombardo Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 (edited) Mac's 45 shop in Seal Beach built me a 1911 Colt with the grip cutoff and pieces added to allow the use of S&W 459 magazines around 1988-89. Wow that is ugly! I shot my first outlaw IPSC match in 1986 with a Remington Rand. Then got an Ed Brown "B" class in 1988-9, and then a S&W 745 and then switched back to 5" .45's and haven't looked back! Edited June 7, 2006 by Anthony Lombardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterLefty Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 This seemed like the right place for this question, when and why did magazines get to be 140 and 170 mm rather than fit flush with the end of the grip? CMC/TRI lead to the development of the extended magazine rules. (I will have to check my notes to see which name the company was running under at the time.) At the time of the '91 nationals, everything was still flush with the bottom of the frame. Of course, Chip was just introducing the polymer frame at the nationals. Back to the question, sometime afterwards CMC/TRI began shipping frames with extended magazines. The basepad rose up the side of the magazine and blended in with the frame. There were shouts of that's illegal and USPSA issued a decision that the extended mags were legal only if your frame came from the factory with the extended magazines. Earlier frames, those shipped with flush magazines, would still have to run flush fitting magazines. This became an uninforciable rule. I don't know how we arrived at the 140/170 dimensions, as I was back at school and was not competing again until late 93 early 94. Kenny P.S. My 1990 P9 held 18+1 flush. Magazines were $13.00 a piece from Springfield (I performed the modifications to bump the capacity from 17 to 18). By comparison, you could send Para mags out to be modified for 38 super with delrin rails installed for $150 each plus the cost of the magazine. They held 19+1. I don't remember what the solid base pad Caspians would hold (I think 19). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Nov/Dec 1992 Front Sight: "Effective Jan 1, 1993, pistol magazines that do not exceed 170mm, (about six and eleven sixteenths inches), will be legal for limited and unlimited competition in the United States. The magazines and any attachments must not exceed this maximum length." Obviously with the influx of STIs and Paras, the 170mm's-in-Limited ruling didn't last long before becoming 'single-stack only'. This is because the IPSC World Assembly in 1992 declared that 170mm (the US wouldn't have come up with a metric rule) was the max for unlimited (only) category. This same World Assembly also created the IPSC Standard and Modified categories. The US was asking to get the 170mm ruling extended to Standard/Limited "after testing in the US". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmcphersn Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 I shot a few club matches in 86-87. I'd never done any competitive shooting and a friend told me how to find the combat matches. I showed up with my Glock 17 and a Galco Miami Vice shoulder rig. I ended up shooting the first match Mexican (no holster) and got a Glock pancake before the next one. Never got around to getting a mag carrier, just grabbed reloads from the back pocket. I got one of the first Glock 19's and began shooting it, since it was my carry gun. I got back into pratical shooting about three years ago and am shooting upgraded equipment. Kydex holster, mag pouches, drop free mags, and TFO sights. Otherwise the same Glock 19. Except for the 10 round mags, I was shooting production when production wasn't cool. Anyone from the old Swift Creek club in Autaugaville AL around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 *semi-rant mode on* The 170mm magazines came about with good intentions but went south in a hurry. Started with an article by Walt Rauch in some rag that is not printed anymore, saying that why can't guys in the [brand new] Limited division shoot their 45acp 1911's with the long 11-shot magazines that had been around for decades. They were about 170mm long. This would allow you to shoot the revolver-neutral courses back then with one mag for every 2 positions, esp. if you put a McCormick follower in the mag and got 12+1 capacity. That's the setup Jerry Barnhart used: Wilson 45acp with 12-round mags. Back in 92/93 the only other ways to get hi capacity was a Para 45 or the EAA 40cal gun. There were no 40cal widebody 1911's yet. Someone asked, "Can we shoot with 170mm doublestack mags?" and someone at uspsa mulled over it for [apparently] 2.5 seconds and said, "Yeah, sure, why not? Go ahead." This gave some guys a Para/Springfield 45acp with 22+1 capacity. Also gave the EAA 40cal a capacity of about 17+1, which I shot for a while. Then in '94, the widebody 40's came out from STI and Para. Some time when I wasn't shooting they changed the rule to "factory standard" which still fit 16+1 in the EAA. Then they changed the rule again and said, no, we meant STI factory standard: 140mm. All this while still allowing 170mm single-stack mags in Limited [which is still the case I believe - gives you a 40cal capacity of 14+1] and 170mm doublestacks in Open. Not really sure why we need 170mm in Open - like the guns aren't huge enough already. I do know this - if you shoot Open you have to have one. I have, since '97 or so but I'd be happy if they just said 140 double-stack, 170 single-stack across the board, every division. *ok, I feel better now* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Thanks for all the input guys. I was watching the How to Shoot Fast and Accurately Video and noticed one of the shooters, I think it was Chip McCormick, explaining the mags had to fit flush with the grip and that's why everyone wanted one of the new whiz bang 8 round magazines instead of the standard 7. Boy you guys who started back in the old 20th Century sure had it tough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Thanks for all the input guys. I was watching the How to Shoot Fast and Accurately Video and noticed one of the shooters, I think it was Chip McCormick, explaining the mags had to fit flush with the grip and that's why everyone wanted one of the new whiz bang 8 round magazines instead of the standard 7. Boy you guys who started back in the old 20th Century sure had it tough! and when we went to 38 super...we got 2 more!!!! now that was high tech... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 When you went to 38 super was it scored major or minor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Here's some old Front Sight covers from the wayback machine: click here for full-size version Top row (1989): - Robbie wins in 1988. Single stack, caliber not clear, looks like it has a comp or barrel weight. - 10mm is the next great caliber. Note the real leather. State of the art. - Robbie wins in 1989 with some stylin red pants. Still an iron-sighted singlestack with something on the front of the barrel (there is no "guns-n-gear-of-the-top-guys" invented yet) Center Row (1990: - The solder-on Schuemann hybrid rib - 3-Gun state of the art. Carry handle scopes, wood-stocked shotguns - Factory Comp guns. 2 ports is the hot setup, debate if the second port actually does anything. A very youthful-looking Les Baer is running the Springfield custom shop Bottom Row (1990-1992): - Jerry wins in 1990. Funny looking piece of plumbing on top of his gun, but it's still a singlestack - Doug wins the WS in 1991. With a P9 'hicap' and a scope. - 1992. Here comes the CMC/Tripp/STI/SV frame.. the end is nigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 (edited) Around the last year that TGO shot for Wilson they switched to the dual port comp..when he switched over full time to Springfield..they were using the same dual port style comp..I think they made the last baffel slightly thinner.. in '91 when Jerry won with the a dot..Robbie was shooting the P9 with iron sights and if I remember they were wearing burgundy and beige..switching away from the red pants I can remember standing around the CMC table..everyone trying to see and touch the new hi-cap frame..it extended past flusch..but had that big ole ugly basepad to fit flush with the frame. Chip and Virgil in their snazzy black and white shirts... everyone had a uniform pants and shirts..Springfield, Para, Colt, SmithandWesson, Caspian,. At the world shoot Doug adding the red dot to the P9 in 9mm major..Robbie was shooting what the magazines called 9mmJLE When you went to 38 super was it scored major or minor? scored major.. the hot set up at the time was blue dot and heavy bullets...can't remember which match it was ..but it was quite stir when TGO showed up shooting 130FMJ bullets.. I can remember the hot mag was to take a Wilson .45 8rnd mag..shorten the spring, tweak the follower and get 11 rounds into it. you couldn't get them to work consistently..but you just had to have one.. Edited June 8, 2006 by eerw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 38 Super major + Blue Dot + 175 PF = Super Face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 (edited) 38 Super major + Blue Dot + 175 PF = Super Face yep..those were fun times... remember also using AA7, WW540. OH...anyone remember what year Jerry had the specially made high cap gun.. George Huening had cut and welded together a single stack Colt frame and made a wide body gun. Edited June 8, 2006 by eerw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Jerry shot the chopped & widened "Colt" gun in 1991. Took 17-round P9 magazines in 9x21 caliber. He got the thing like 4 days before the Nationals & flushed [iirc] about 4 stages with Mikes & no-shoots. In '92 he spanked everyone with a McCormick/Tripp/Colt and [gasp] 115-grain bullets. Todd won the 1991 match with a Para P18, first year they got the mags to work right [with ridges] in 38 Super. His gun had no true magwell, just an S&A made for singlestacks with it's sides chopped off. You could probably win any match today with that '91 Para. Few years later Para sold the P16 in 40cal, again different ridges in the side of the mag to make it work. Similar solution by Strayer/Tripp/TRI/STI/SVI; Chip was out of the picture by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Todd won the 1991 match with a Para P18, first year they got the mags to work right [with ridges] in 38 Super. His gun had no true magwell, just an S&A made for singlestacks with it's sides chopped off. You could probably win any match today with that '91 Para. the orig para hi cap frames took a few gunsmiths out of business checkering the front strap. i remember mine doing one on a buddies and he said his hands were numb for 2 weeks! plastic was sure nice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 The Burner's cut and welded Colt was made by Bill Wilson. I still have the article on the gun. Wilson had designed his own hi-cap frame but never put it into production due to pending legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 The Burner's cut and welded Colt was made by Bill Wilson. I still have the article on the gun.Wilson had designed his own hi-cap frame but never put it into production due to pending legislation. I knew Wilson was his sponsor and had worked most of the gun....but I thought Huening had done the actual cut and weld to the frame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterLefty Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Thanks for all the input guys. I was watching the How to Shoot Fast and Accurately Video and noticed one of the shooters, I think it was Chip McCormick, explaining the mags had to fit flush with the grip and that's why everyone wanted one of the new whiz bang 8 round magazines instead of the standard 7. Boy you guys who started back in the old 20th Century sure had it tough! The 85 nationals in Arizona had a lot of whiners. There was one stage that required 9 rounds. If you were real gamey and had the devel follower, you shot the gun dry on that stage and saved a reload. The cool thing was when we made an 11 round super mag (flush fitting of course) for the 12 round stages. This was before everyone got smart and starting dictating when you had to reload, instead of stating to reload between the first and last shot. I can remember standing around the CMC table..everyone trying to see and touch the new hi-cap frame..it extended past flusch..but had that big ole ugly basepad to fit flush with the frame. Chip and Virgil in their snazzy black and white shirts... Do you remember that Chip only had the one prototype. $499 a frame and he was still taking orders standing on the stairs at the Travellodge on Saturday while trying to pack. Team Caspian was shooting Para, because they didn't receive their Caspian frames until a week before the match. <Pop quiz> Does anyone remember what JLE stood for? I still have one of Robbie's cases in my P9 bin. There was no head stamp on the brass though. Kenny (I need to stop reading this post or you will force me to pull out my '86 major 9 Hi-Power out of the safe. This is not a good thing because it already has a cracked slide.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 The first two port comp for a 45 acp that I saw was made by Floyd Wine, 1980. It had the front sight on the comp. BE knew Floyd! Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 (edited) "I knew Wilson was his sponsor and had worked most of the gun....but I thought Huening had done the actual cut and weld to the frame..." According to the AH article....it was a Wilson design. That's all I have to go by. Staring at the write-up now actually...no mention of George. "<Pop quiz> Does anyone remember what JLE stood for? I still have one of Robbie's cases in my P9 bin. There was no head stamp on the brass though." Just Long Enough.... The Italians called it 9x21. 2 mm longer case because the Italian Gov't forbids its citizens from owning guns chambered in "military" calibers sans no 9x19. Add 2mm to the case, call it 9x21...defeat the Italian law and the USPSA rule banning 9x19 major. Brass was originally made by Tanfoglio, later on by CP Bullets in Pennsylvania. Edited June 9, 2006 by Chuck D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Who was the first person to try MAJOR 9MM? Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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