teros135 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) It seems to be the consensus here that the system works pretty well. Everyone makes their choice and shoots in the Division and PF that works for them. Most of the comments do appear to be intelligent, thoughtful, and patient. Well done, BE fans! This subject has been hashed and rehashed, and now we're hearing that we aren't supposed to make comments. Agree it's time to close it. Edited October 21, 2015 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Halley Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 I think multiple people have politely suggested to you that this is a problem that doesn't need fixing. Your partner came in after the water had cleared and tried to lend credibility to you by stating you had some ability given your screen name elsewhere. Then you stirred the waters up again. Your idea is a bad one this time because it is actively trying to offset the advantage gained in the higher power factor. You simply cannot uninvent the forty caliber guns. Would it be interesting to see a stage or too shot with a .45 vs. a 9mm to see if major or minor is better? Sure why not. Since forty bridges the gap in power, diameter, and magazine capacity, it is the best choice for limited under the current rules for most shooters. Since the racker, *thumb rest [generic]*, and 6" barrels have come into favor, I cannot see a disadvantage to shooting either minor or major. Well I see one disadvantage, if you don't make minor, you might as well save your ammo. I feel like a six inch 9mm gun is just as competitive as a five inch .40. Accuracy, power, speed....in that order. Risk vs. Reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaGunner Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Can't believe this thread is still going. Let me say it again- You want to be more competitive in limited division? Then put in the work, practice! Don't change the rules so you'll be more competitive, change your skill level and be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Yep, that's the bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsb Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Can't believe this thread is still going. Let me say it again- You want to be more competitive in limited division? Then put in the work, practice! Don't change the rules so you'll be more competitive, change your skill level and be competitive. Ironic... The rules for minor are the same as they were when this game was invented. The rules for major are considerably different, and more preferential than they ever were.... just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaGunner Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) While you guys are changing stuff. Have them change DVC to DC, because you guys don't understand that part. Edited October 21, 2015 by ParaGunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) Major is Major, and it was always intended to be preferred, at least in Limited and Open. Nice to be able to shoot Minor too, but can't expect to get the same points. Do you also expect to get a trophy for showing up? Edited October 22, 2015 by teros135 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ltdmstr Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Yes. Participation trophies for everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsb Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 While you guys are changing stuff. Have them change DVC to DC, because you guys don't understand that part. Again... The rules for minor are the same as when this game was invented. The rules for major, the 'V' part, originally were based on .45 ball ammo (230grn/850fps), you do the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 This is one of the problems in our world today. All things in life are not completely equal, take a look around. It was not in the design of life .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I have no dog in this fight but here are my thoughts, worth what you paid for them. I don't think it is a capacity issue as it is a scoring issue. The first way to explore this would be to take a match and find the Limited shooter who shot the most A's and rescore him as minor and see where he'd fall in the scoring. Then also do the same for a fake/ghost shooter using the data from who won each stage and then see where this mystery shooter would have finished. This would be telling. Secondly related to scoring, if the stage has 14 paper targets and each shooter shoots two alpha on ten of them and alpha charlie on the remaining four the major shooter earns 136 points and the minor shooter 132 points. Or a difference of 3 percent. The major shooter could shoot shoot 20 alphas on the same stage and 8 charlies and shoot the same amount of points as the minor shooter. One could think of this as being able to be "twice as innacurate". Good or bad? Do we have to agree that in actual shooting there is do difference in the time it takes to do anything between a Limited major gun and a Limited minor gun? Do they run the same shot splits? The same transitions? If there is no functional difference, then why the scoring difference? Is the effect of major on the shooter in limited equal to the relative difference in scoring? Let's use data to analyze the issue, I can't call it a problem. Can we use classifier data, as these are capacity neutral between the divisions, to infer anything? There are ways to look at this beyond capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 This is one of the problems realities in our world today. All things in life are not completely equal, take a look around. It was not in the design of life .... FIFY. I clicked on the thread expecting something entirely different. I believe that any change to Limited would be counter-productive to the sport. There are several people who are GMs that have shot Limited Minor on purpose and done okay, some with top 16s even. Minor gets to play in a few divisions and really was a concession back when those divisions came in to play. If you want to water Limited down more so you can be "competitive" then competing in a different sport or division is what you should seek. not try to gain an equipment advantage to make up for skillset on an equivalent footing with better shooters. When I started, there were two divisions and everyone shot major, several years prior, it was one division. The "reasons" way back when to add the other 4 divisions have in part proven to have been wrong. The major PF floor has been lowered as well. .40S&W is a cartridge waning sans USPSA Limited and frankly, I have no problem with that. USPSA has a very weak leadership at present and is losing market share at a considerable pace. I hope the new president cleans house and puts USPSA back on the tracks. The membership is as much responsible for the whining and problems as the leadership in some areas. USPSA failed when in came to: 3Gun in the 1980s, then Revolver, then hi-cap 9mms, then SS, then the AWB, then SC. While hindsight is 20/20, learning from those failures has been something that appears to have been lost on USPSA and a lot of USPSA shooters. There is absolutely no reason that USPSA could not have 300,000 plus members, run several Nationals with 1,000 shooters each who earned those spots, have several different action shooting sports, each with a few divisions and a bevy of actual professional shooters, but for lack of foresight and leadership. Trying to make USPSA pistol appeal to every competitor was (again in hindsight) the wrong approach and once this tinkering in the base sport stops, I think the path to recovery can be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teros135 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Here are the numbers from the 2015 Limited Nationals: 296 shooters, 30 (10.2%) shooting Minor. Of those, 2 were in the top 100 and 7 were in the top 50%. About the same percentage of Minor in the DQ group. It seems that most (90%) people shoot Major in Limited, and we don't hear them discussing how they "need" to shoot Minor or that they don't shoot it because it's not competitive. Good shooters can shoot good. Let's all go out and shoot and have a good time. That's what it's about, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) I wonder how many of those shooter's found out they were shooting minor AT THE match Edited October 22, 2015 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWprotected Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 I wonder how many of those shooter's found out they were shooting minor AT THE match I came pretty close 172pf at home 166 at nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 There is absolutely no reason that USPSA could not have 300,000 plus members, run several Nationals with 1,000 shooters each who earned those spots, have several different action shooting sports, each with a few divisions and a bevy of actual professional shooters, but for lack of foresight and leadership. Trying to make USPSA pistol appeal to every competitor was (again in hindsight) the wrong approach and once this tinkering in the base sport stops, I think the path to recovery can be found. I suppose this is really a question for another thread, although this one has already run its course, but I'm curious how you think USPSA could achieve this or what steps they should take to move in this direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Ryder Posted October 22, 2015 Author Share Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) There is absolutely no reason that USPSA could not have 300,000 plus members, run several Nationals with 1,000 shooters each who earned those spots, have several different action shooting sports, each with a few divisions and a bevy of actual professional shooters, but for lack of foresight and leadership. Trying to make USPSA pistol appeal to every competitor was (again in hindsight) the wrong approach and once this tinkering in the base sport stops, I think the path to recovery can be found. I suppose this is really a question for another thread, although this one has already run its course, but I'm curious how you think USPSA could achieve this or what steps they should take to move in this direction? This was the only reason I started this thread. I will never be skilled enough (due to a physical limitation) to make A class. I am struggling to make B class. I am not looking for any advantage to make up for a deficit. I have a permanent deficit and I don't want any special considerations outside of what is already in the rule book. I just noticed that shooting Limited 9 minor was a clear loser and I think that puts off new people interested in the sport. I think we should make shooting Limited more appealing, especially to new shooters. I thought that making 9 Limited minor a little more appealing to new girls and guys would benefit USPSA membership wise. This is an expensive hobby. The average USPSA member lasts 3 years or less. I think the cost involved is part of that reason. I see that some folks are clearly against making any changes. I am ok with that. I am still going to shoot 9 limited minor and improve. My thoughts on the subject ruffled feathers. I concede, that after lengthy discussion and thought, there is no simple answer, no simple fix. 9 Minor in Limited will always be a clear disadvantage. Edited October 22, 2015 by Red Ryder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 The Divisions of which you speak Red Ryder are called "Production", "Single-Stack" and now they are trying out "Carry Optics". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 There is absolutely no reason that USPSA could not have 300,000 plus members, run several Nationals with 1,000 shooters each who earned those spots, have several different action shooting sports, each with a few divisions and a bevy of actual professional shooters, but for lack of foresight and leadership. Trying to make USPSA pistol appeal to every competitor was (again in hindsight) the wrong approach and once this tinkering in the base sport stops, I think the path to recovery can be found. I suppose this is really a question for another thread, although this one has already run its course, but I'm curious how you think USPSA could achieve this or what steps they should take to move in this direction? Start a thread and you will be inundated with ideas. USPSA let the best shooting sports marketing mind go, and he went to IDPA. See what happened there. Now IDPA is going another way. Where he lands, if in a shooting sport, will grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 There is absolutely no reason that USPSA could not have 300,000 plus members, run several Nationals with 1,000 shooters each who earned those spots, have several different action shooting sports, each with a few divisions and a bevy of actual professional shooters, but for lack of foresight and leadership. Trying to make USPSA pistol appeal to every competitor was (again in hindsight) the wrong approach and once this tinkering in the base sport stops, I think the path to recovery can be found.I suppose this is really a question for another thread, although this one has already run its course, but I'm curious how you think USPSA could achieve this or what steps they should take to move in this direction? Start a thread and you will be inundated with ideas. USPSA let the best shooting sports marketing mind go, and he went to IDPA. See what happened there. Now IDPA is going another way. Where he lands, if in a shooting sport, will grow. Oh I've learned my lesson about starting a thread involving "USPSA" and "change" , but if someone else wants to start that thread I'd be interested to read the responses. Who's this "he" you speak of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 Who's this "he" you speak of? Paul Erhardt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Let me pose this question: If Limited Minor doesn't warrant an increased mag capacity, why does Single Stack and Revolver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Let me pose this question: If Limited Minor doesn't warrant an increased mag capacity, why does Single Stack and Revolver? It does, as long as u r shooting 9. I get 23/24 +1 in a 140mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKT1106 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Thats true, but those divisions allow bigger magazines/cylinders for minor. If we were following the logic applied to Limited, SS would all be the same mag length and revolver would he the same cylinder circumference and we would say if you want to shoot minor, stuff as many as you can in those legal ammunition feeding devices.m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWprotected Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Thats true, but those divisions allow bigger magazines/cylinders for minor. If we were following the logic applied to Limited, SS would all be the same mag length and revolver would he the same cylinder circumference and we would say if you want to shoot minor, stuff as many as you can in those legal ammunition feeding devices.m I don't think that is true, in single stack you can just fit more 9mm in the same size mag just like in limited. I am not sure for revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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