What Benefit Do Clubs Get For Affiliation?

[d_striker]

Aside from running classifiers, what value is USPSA providing to clubs for all the activity fees.

And on a side note, would you go to an Outlaw USPSA match with no classifier if the stages were really good? Let's assume that all USPSA rules are followed and enforced and division rules are the same as well. Assume MD is a CRO and there are many members of the club board that are certified RO's. The only difference from a sanctioned match is that there is no classifier.

Edited August 21, 2015 by d_striker

[sfinney]

My perspective is if I go to USPSA match I know what to expect. "Outlaw" or "like USPSA rule " matches you never know what you are getting.... regardless of the quality of the match. I'm much more likely to go to a sanctioned one. Especially if I'm working on my classification.

I've attended non-USPSA or IDPA affiliated matches, some were really fun. Others..... frustrating because they all had weird "home court" rules.

[mosher]

We ran an outlaw match for years and averaged 15-20 local shooters. We affiliated with USPSA and almost instantly started getting 50-60 people a month, several from neighboring states.

[lcs]

Aside from running classifiers, what value is USPSA providing to clubs for all the activity fees.

And on a side note, would you go to an Outlaw USPSA match with no classifier if the stages were really good?

The same RULES are applied at each match and club. Should be anyway.

[d_striker]

We ran an outlaw match for years and averaged 15-20 local shooters. We affiliated with USPSA and almost instantly started getting 50-60 people a month, several from neighboring states.

Do you attribute the increase in numbers solely from affiliating?

[zzt]

I would shoot in a uspsa match that did not include classifiers.

[sarnburg]

As a club founder/MD/RM the tow most important benefits of USPSA affiliation are a well defined and supported rule set, and the RO/CRO training. The shooters know what to expect and in turn what is expected of them.

I once went to a non-sanctioned "USPSA" match and after registering, paying and shooting half the stages the MD pulls me aside and says we do not allow optics in our open division so you are shooting for no score. Never mind that I registered after I went to the safe area and had my gun on in a ghost holster, but no one bothered to tell me optics were not allowed until half way through the match.

[d_striker]

As a club founder/MD/RM the tow most important benefits of USPSA affiliation are a well defined and supported rule set, and the RO/CRO training. The shooters know what to expect and in turn what is expected of them.

I once went to a non-sanctioned "USPSA" match and after registering, paying and shooting half the stages the MD pulls me aside and says we do not allow optics in our open division so you are shooting for no score. Never mind that I registered after I went to the safe area and had my gun on in a ghost holster, but no one bothered to tell me optics were not allowed until half way through the match.

I agree that sounds pretty lame.

Let's assume that all USPSA rules are followed and enforced and division rules are the same as well. Assume MD is a CRO and there are many members of the club board that are certified RO's.

Again, what value is USPSA providing clubs for the fees they are paying?

[Codycoyote]

Clubs get absolutely no benefits from USPSA other than being able to put their logo on the match page. Classification/classifiers do not benifit the club, they are for the shooters. The rules being the same everywhere do not benefit the club as much as the shooters.

USPSA does not provide discounts of props/steel/targets, or anything else I am aware of. Those would be a benefit to the club as a whole.

The only benefit is being able to say you are a "sactioned club". That alone will help get more shooters, and in turn more money, but also costs the club more money.

Hopefully the new President will work on a Club Benefit package. it may help convince more clubs to affiliate and in turn give all of us more places to shoot.

[gng4life]

When I first started shooting USPSA in the early 90's, we formed a club without affiliation. It was fun but we were missing a lot. For instance, when different people would run the match, all of a sudden, some rules would change. Later, we decided to use the USPSA rule book and still weren't affiliated. While the rules got better, we didn't have certified ROs to enforce or interrupt them. And we did not get the benefit of keeping classifiers and classifications. It was a little while after this I finally joined USPSA and then we got our club affiliated. Due to my experiences, I probably would not enter a "USPSA-type" match at all.

So what does a club get mostly? Shooters like me with similar experience and wanting consistency in rules with classifier tracking.

Edited August 21, 2015 by gng4life

[mosher]

We ran an outlaw match for years and averaged 15-20 local shooters. We affiliated with USPSA and almost instantly started getting 50-60 people a month, several from neighboring states.

Do you attribute the increase in numbers solely from affiliating?

Yes.

[PatJones]

To me as a shooter, it is worth paying for a real USPSA match. I know what type of match to expect.

I don't know what benefits are offered directly to the club, but I do not have any interest in attending a non-USPSA event so you would not see my entry fees.

I guess 3-gun could be fun, but I don't have much interest in it due to the lack of a central sanctioning body and rule set.

[d_striker]

To me as a shooter, it is worth paying for a real USPSA match. I know what type of match to expect.

I don't know what benefits are offered directly to the club, but I do not have any interest in attending a non-USPSA event so you would not see my entry fees.

I guess 3-gun could be fun, but I don't have much interest in it due to the lack of a central sanctioning body and rule set.

Thanks for the perspective Pat.

What is it about a real USPSA match that makes it worth your money? If all rules are being followed to the letter, is it it purely the classifier that does it for you?

[Chills1994]

Clubs get absolutely no benefits from USPSA other than being able to put their logo on the match page. Classification/classifiers do not benifit the club, they are for the shooters. The rules being the same everywhere do not benefit the club as much as the shooters.

USPSA does not provide discounts of props/steel/targets, or anything else I am aware of. Those would be a benefit to the club as a whole.

The only benefit is being able to say you are a "sactioned club". That alone will help get more shooters, and in turn more money, but also costs the club more money.

Hopefully the new President will work on a Club Benefit package. it may help convince more clubs to affiliate and in turn give all of us more places to shoot.

I am in 100% agreement with you...

All the while sung to Janet Jackson's catchy tune "What Have You Done For Me Lately":

http://youtu.be/r9uizdKZAGE

Full size pepper poppers are like $250 to $300 plus each. The least USPSA HQ could do is go in cahoots with some steel target manufacturer and offer poppers at discounted prices to new clubs, especially when you start to flip through the classifier book and see how many classifier stages require a popper or multiple poppers.

[Thomas H]

Hm. If you aren't affiliated with USPSA, isn't it true that you actually are not allowed to use the term "USPSA" and the USPSA rule set (which is copyrighted, and allowed for use by affiliated clubs only)?

"Let's assume that all USPSA rules are followed and enforced and division rules are the same as well."

Results not sent to HQ, as you said, no classifiers, and shouldn't be actually using the USPSA rules. I'm thinking that if the club is ethical, you will be missing a lot going to a non-affiliated club.

[d_striker]

Hm. If you aren't affiliated with USPSA, isn't it true that you actually are not allowed to use the term "USPSA" and the USPSA rule set (which is copyrighted, and allowed for use by affiliated clubs only)?

"Let's assume that all USPSA rules are followed and enforced and division rules are the same as well."

Results not sent to HQ, as you said, no classifiers, and shouldn't be actually using the USPSA rules. I'm thinking that if the club is ethical, you will be missing a lot going to a non-affiliated club.

Good points. Not sure about the usage of "USPSA." You may be correct.

However, with regard to scoring, results uploaded to Practiscore are almost as good to me. I like that you can see combined overall results on Practiscore. The only negative is the lack of seeing how many A's, B's, C's, etc you shot. I hear there is a way to do it in Practiscore but I haven't seen it.

With more and more clubs using Practiscore, it seems like it's quite the hassle getting scores uploaded to the USPSA site using EZWinScore at the back end.

As far as the rules go, why would an Outlaw match not be able to follow USPSA rules?

Edited August 21, 2015 by d_striker

[Chills1994]

I shot an IDPA style..."style" match at an indoor range every Tuesday night for like a year and a half to two years.

Ethically, I didn't have a problem with it. And the rules were basically IDPA rules.

It was supposed to be fun...or it is supposed to be fun. It's not like anybody went into thinking "OMG! If I win tonight, I get a brand new Chevy Z71 pick up truck! I hope they have an iron clad rulebook of their own...don't want to get cheated out of that truck!"

[PatJones]

To me as a shooter, it is worth paying for a real USPSA match. I know what type of match to expect.

I don't know what benefits are offered directly to the club, but I do not have any interest in attending a non-USPSA event so you would not see my entry fees.

I guess 3-gun could be fun, but I don't have much interest in it due to the lack of a central sanctioning body and rule set.

Thanks for the perspective Pat.

What is it about a real USPSA match that makes it worth your money? If all rules are being followed to the letter, is it it purely the classifier that does it for you?

I want to know what to expect, and what is expected of me, before I get there. If it's a USPSA match I know it will be at a certain minimum standard. I only have 2-3 Sundays a month to shoot.

[Sarge]

I agree with everybody for the most part but I'll add my few thoughts as well.

Don't forget the activity credits that earn the club or section, slots to Nationals. There are enough shooters in our local area that care a lot about getting a slot. If I decided to go outlaw a bunch of locals would possibly focus their attention on other matches they may be passing in currently to shoot my match. Not everybody can shoot every single match every weekend so it seems likely they may skip a match that does absolutely nothing for them in regards to classification or slots.

Here is where I may stray from the mainstream but oh well. I don't think it is just a matter of what USPSA can do for my match. I think of it as, what does my match do for USPSA? Sure we pay them $3 per shooter and don't necessarilly get $3 worth of direct support but that money goes towards keeping our sport alive and well. It funds our parent organization which the typical "devoted" shooter/member appreciates. So I guess in a way I really don't care what they do for me but that's not why I shoot, MD, RO etc

[d_striker]

I agree with everybody for the most part but I'll add my few thoughts as well.

Don't forget the activity credits that earn the club or section, slots to Nationals. There are enough shooters in our local area that care a lot about getting a slot. If I decided to go outlaw a bunch of locals would possibly focus their attention on other matches they may be passing in currently to shoot my match. Not everybody can shoot every single match every weekend so it seems likely they may skip a match that does absolutely nothing for them in regards to classification or slots.

Here is where I may stray from the mainstream but oh well. I don't think it is just a matter of what USPSA can do for my match. I think of it as, what does my match do for USPSA? Sure we pay them $3 per shooter and don't necessarilly get $3 worth of direct support but that money goes towards keeping our sport alive and well. It funds our parent organization which the typical "devoted" shooter/member appreciates. So I guess in a way I really don't care what they do for me but that's not why I shoot, MD, RO etc

Good response, Sarge.

Does USPSA get $3 per shooter PLUS the classifier fee? If that's the case I feel, purely as a member/shooter, that they should be running a class update at least bi-weekly if not every week.

Edited August 21, 2015 by d_striker

[Sarge]

I agree with everybody for the most part but I'll add my few thoughts as well.

Don't forget the activity credits that earn the club or section, slots to Nationals. There are enough shooters in our local area that care a lot about getting a slot. If I decided to go outlaw a bunch of locals would possibly focus their attention on other matches they may be passing in currently to shoot my match. Not everybody can shoot every single match every weekend so it seems likely they may skip a match that does absolutely nothing for them in regards to classification or slots.

Here is where I may stray from the mainstream but oh well. I don't think it is just a matter of what USPSA can do for my match. I think of it as, what does my match do for USPSA? Sure we pay them $3 per shooter and don't necessarilly get $3 worth of direct support but that money goes towards keeping our sport alive and well. It funds our parent organization which the typical "devoted" shooter/member appreciates. So I guess in a way I really don't care what they do for me but that's not why I shoot, MD, RO etc

Good response, Sarge.

Does USPSA get $3 per shooter PLUS the classifier fee? If that's the case I feel, purely as a member/shooter, that they should be running a class update at least bi-weekly if not every week.

No. Just 3 bucks total. That's the classifier fee.

[Nik Habicht]

I agree with everybody for the most part but I'll add my few thoughts as well.

Don't forget the activity credits that earn the club or section, slots to Nationals. There are enough shooters in our local area that care a lot about getting a slot. If I decided to go outlaw a bunch of locals would possibly focus their attention on other matches they may be passing in currently to shoot my match. Not everybody can shoot every single match every weekend so it seems likely they may skip a match that does absolutely nothing for them in regards to classification or slots.

Here is where I may stray from the mainstream but oh well. I don't think it is just a matter of what USPSA can do for my match. I think of it as, what does my match do for USPSA? Sure we pay them $3 per shooter and don't necessarilly get $3 worth of direct support but that money goes towards keeping our sport alive and well. It funds our parent organization which the typical "devoted" shooter/member appreciates. So I guess in a way I really don't care what they do for me but that's not why I shoot, MD, RO etc

I share Kevin's opinion.

[Nik Habicht]

I agree with everybody for the most part but I'll add my few thoughts as well.

Don't forget the activity credits that earn the club or section, slots to Nationals. There are enough shooters in our local area that care a lot about getting a slot. If I decided to go outlaw a bunch of locals would possibly focus their attention on other matches they may be passing in currently to shoot my match. Not everybody can shoot every single match every weekend so it seems likely they may skip a match that does absolutely nothing for them in regards to classification or slots.

Here is where I may stray from the mainstream but oh well. I don't think it is just a matter of what USPSA can do for my match. I think of it as, what does my match do for USPSA? Sure we pay them $3 per shooter and don't necessarilly get $3 worth of direct support but that money goes towards keeping our sport alive and well. It funds our parent organization which the typical "devoted" shooter/member appreciates. So I guess in a way I really don't care what they do for me but that's not why I shoot, MD, RO etc

Good response, Sarge.

Does USPSA get $3 per shooter PLUS the classifier fee? If that's the case I feel, purely as a member/shooter, that they should be running a class update at least bi-weekly if not every week.

No. Just 3 bucks total. That's the classifier fee.

Close but not quite. Classifier fee is $1.50. There's another $1.50 that's an activity fee. Don't want to run a classifier one month? You'll still owe $1.50 per shooter to USPSA.....

[Gary Stevens]

I don't shoot matches that are like USPSA, but not USPSA. USPSA actually promotes gun ownership, the safe use of guns, promotes a family atmosphere with women and juniors,runs major shooting competitions, provides a relatively stable rule set, trains hundreds of Range Officers each year and provides a system where the members can elect their representatives.

Now let's compare that to Billy Bob's outlaw match. Billy Bob runs a weekend match, collects your match fee, returns nothing to the people who participate. If he doesn't like you or the fact you question why he does something the way he does it, tells you to hit the road and don't come back because this is his match and he does what he wants.

USPSA has problems, but on its worst day is better than Billy Bob's outlaw match.

[Nimitz]

yeah, there's no way I'm going to train for USPSA events and then attend a non-sanctioned event & 'hope' it what I expect. Also, there doesn't have to be an classifiers to make it a USPSA event. In fact, at our club, except for the annual classifier match we only see 3 or 4 classifier stages the entire rest of the year. A $1.50/person to help run the National organization doesn't seem like too big a deal when clubs are charging anywhere from $10-$20/person. You might want to ask this same question of the range? What are they giving back for there $8.50-$18.50/person they collect? Yes, they let you shoot the match but if you weren't there someone else would be ...