Getting started with a 929 .356 vs .358

[Ty Hamby]

In lieu of continuing to hijack someone else's 929 accuracy thread I thought I would start another 929 thread. In this thread I want to document the modifications I plan on making. I want it to start with opening it up. Then take it un-molested to a ransom rest, lock it in and fire ammo through the gun ammo recipes with different caps on the muzzle. I really want to work on accuracy and what it takes to make an accurate shooter.

Up until now all I have done is insert pin gauges into the cylinder to determine throat size. My .357 pin goes in 6 of the 8 holes perfectly. The .357 pin does no go in 2 of the 8. However the .356 does fit a bit loose in the 2 others. So I am concluding all 8 holes are beyond the .356 spec. Right?

Next I have no idea were to start. I do have some factory 124 Federal American Eagles to chrono/check accuracy for a baseline. However I have no intention of shooting anything but my own hand-loads in .38short colt cases. Short colt because 1) I own 3k that I shot in a past .38super gun that worked AWESOME that I do not use in .38specials. 2) I own 100+ Hearthco EDM Clips already. 3) Swimming against the current sometimes is what I enjoy.

What rules need to be followed for using .358 plated/coated bullets in a gun designed for .356. Can it be done on a regular bases. if not what modifications will need to be done to the cylinder or barrel? I see plenty of threads where others are already doing it. Are they wrong? Are there early and late versions of this gun that hold different specs?

Lastly here is what I have an abundance of to develop a load.

Plenty of 9mm various range brass
Plenty of 9mm (new Starline)
Plenty of Short Colts fired in .38super 627

N310
N320
S1000
Universal

Federal SSP

.356 135gn Black Bullet International (Bayou plastic coated)
.356 170gn Bear Creek Bullets (moly)

.358 160gn Black Bullet International (Bayou plastic coated)
.358 170gn Bear Creek Bullets (moly)

Of course I can buy more of whatever is best, but this is what I have.
My original intent was to send it off to get tricked out. Now in second thought I want to give it a go. I have both forcing cone and muzzle crown tools so why not give it a go.

As Dan has advised in another thread, I should begin with just shooting it to see what it in fact needs. So here goes a question.

1) Do I just work on load development first, then work on mechanical accuracy of the gun later?

a) If starting first on load development my initial thought was 135BBI in SC cases using N320.

if starting on accuracy and gun modification first then maybe just shoot some 9mm anything to see what it is shooting now.

2) With the ingredients above, what load?

3) what about .358 in .356 gun?

My groups will all be recorded via ransom rest indoors with M2 Chrono data. So lets get started.

[Toolguy]

Hi Ty-

With what you are wanting to do, I would say to try some different loads in the gun as is for a baseline. Then recut the forcing cone and muzzle crown and reshoot the same loads and note any changes.

For loading reference, here are some general guidelines on accuracy. There are always exceptions to general rules, but this will give you a starting point. In no particular order-

A lot of loads will shoot OK out to 25 yards, but not so good at 50 and beyond. If something works really well at 50, it's a pretty good load.

Hollow points usually shoot tighter groups than solid points.

Heavier bullets usually shoot better groups than lighter bullets.

Higher velocity will often tighten groups, especially as you go down in bullet weight.

Under sized bullets usually shoot poor groups. On size up to .002 oversize usually shoot good groups.

There are lots of variables. These are the ones that seem to make the most difference.

Edit to add: Different powders add another layer of variables.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Toolguy

[Shadowrider]

Hi Ty-

With what you are wanting to do, I would say to try some different loads in the gun as is for a baseline.

This is what you should do for all modifications you make. It eliminates variables and gives tangible data that should be very useful to a lot of folks.

[pskys2]

You are planning on shooting Short Colts in the 929? Have you tried them with the moon clips, do they work?

[Ty Hamby]

I have not shot any rounds in this gun yet. The Short Colts I have do work well in the clips I have. Whether or not if they will fire is yet to be determined. I do have spring, Apex hammer and FP ready to fit and drop in. I have new Toolguy front sight and LPA rear ready to go as well.

So for now I will not touch the gun. I will begin load data and shoot from the Ransom Rest and through a Chorno to document well what is going on. Im in no hurry to get this done. My IRC gun and ammo are set to go. This if it turns out well will possibly be a 2016 gun. My starting at this time might as well be the tried and true 160gn coated in a ShortC with N310 loaded long. Im thinking 2.7-2.9gn at a 1.175oal

Are we sure .358 sized bullets will not blow up my cylinder? Should I slug my barrel before I begin shooting it just for reference?

[dansedgli]

I thought I was going to have to spend a bunch of money to make my 38 super 627 accurate after reading lots on here.

This was shot using the load I've been using in my Trojan for the last year at 50 yards.

my advice is shoot it first.

[Shmella]

I did it backwards. Bought one, anticipated getting a bunch of work done, couldn't wait and sent it out before I even shot it. Then I read every post about a 929 here and regretted not shooting it first. Just got it back yesterday (after Quite some time...) and now Im hoping for the best..we'll see!

[BBeavers]

In my last match, I shot my 929 using bullets I already had loaded for my 627 - .38 TK .025 moons loaded w/ 160 gr coated .358 BBI's, Federal primers in Starline short colt brass @ 1.200 OAL. Other than my rear sight blade falling out, the gun worked perfectly. I need to chrono the load and see how it compares to my 627, but barring any evidence to the contrary, I am going to keep using them.

[DougCarden]

It is hard to make over a 125pf with 310 with 147-150 in short colt without pressure. I would recommend starting with VV320 3.0 3.2 3.4 3.6 with 10 rounds and see if you have any sticky extraction and then chrono/accuracy test from there. I would also try the SOLO with the 160 .358 doing the same and see what you get. I have never liked the lighter grain bullet just from accuracy standpoint but try them and see if you like them.

Looking forward to the results!

DougC

[pskys2]

It's still an N Frame and should take the pressure. But 358 lead at reasonable velocities/PF won't blow up a cylinder.

I was curious if the 38 short colts loaded into a tight moon clip will drop in and not bind up somewhere in a 9mm cylinder?

[seanc]

It's still an N Frame and should take the pressure. But 358 lead at reasonable velocities/PF won't blow up a cylinder.

I was curious if the 38 short colts loaded into a tight moon clip will drop in and not bind up somewhere in a 9mm cylinder?

not paying attention/scatter brain I shot a 160 that the bullet feeder had dropped upside down, so this would a compressed load of 3.0 of TG.

If made a mighty bang and was startling, but no apparent damage.

[Toolguy]

The 9mm chamber is quite a bit bigger than a .38 SC. The bolt circle is the same diameter for all 8 shots. The .38 SC in a 9mm gun should fall in easily and have a little room to rattle around.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Toolguy

[MWP]

Short colt did fine in my 929, shot a bunch of it. .358 158s were fine too, actually my most accurate load.

[Ty Hamby]

Is not the 9mm chamber the same as a .38super at the neck. I thought the only difference was from the neck backwards to the opening. Its tapered, but is the same as my .38super at the neck. So once my ShortC's are fire formed in the 9mm cylinder they become 9mm rimmed. I plan on not bothering to resize to ShortC dimension but to keep it at the 9mm dimension using a 9mm sizing die. Possibly the EGW-U die if necessary.

I have no plans on ever placing this brass into a special cylinder or working it that hard to make it possible.

[Toolguy]

The neck is the same, the base is bigger. The .38 SC will probably work just fine.

[DougCarden]

The 9mm die will over work the brass. I had some that were bulged at the base from hot loads and tried squeezing them down....some worked some were still bulged. Let us know what you come up with....

[MWP]

Ty what die are you running the SC through for your 627-4?

[pskys2]

Curious once a 38 short colt is shot through a 9mm, will it size back down and work in a 627?

[Ty Hamby]

Ty what die are you running the SC through for your 627-4?

.38 special RCBS die. They didnt work well in a special gun. They worked great in my super gun. I no longer own or shoot super.

Curious once a 38 short colt is shot through a 9mm, will it size back down and work in a 627?

I would not want to. Once I fire form them I do not plan on returning them to anything other than what fits well in the 9mm cylinder. When I did this in super. It took 2 separate sizing die combinations to return the brass enough to reliably load in a special cylinder. One die (LeeU) returned the base better than the others (Others = Redding, RCBS, Dillon, Lyman) but .356 bullets did not have enough neck tension without running it through a RCBS die second. Then all was fine and they would work in my wife's Ti .38special cylinder and of course also my .38super cylinder. I gave up after 4 or 5 cycles of this and it was a pain in the behind. I parked the short colt brass, replacing them with long colts for her special cylinder and purchased .38super brass for my gun. I just dealt with 2 separate calibers. The following year I sold the super and purchased a 6.5" 627PC with the funds. Currently we share the same load. (all long colts cut down to .900 length) in our Ti Cylinders. Ugh!

Right when I get away from separate calibers I find myself right back in.

I will be loading several loads this weekend for Ransom Rest/Chrono testing next week.

[MWP]

Curious once a 38 short colt is shot through a 9mm, will it size back down and work in a 627?

Mine did just fine.

[BBeavers]

Curious once a 38 short colt is shot through a 9mm, will it size back down and work in a 627?

Mine did too.

[AzShooter]

My 629 has been working out very well. I've tried Eggeston 125's in it so far with 3.3 grains of N 320 and they group very well. I'' chrono next week when I can get to the range again. Along with 160 grain Bayou Bullets and 2.8 grains of N 320. I hope they out group the 125s but that us going to take some effort.

Trigger was awful from the factory but with an Apex hammer and some mild stoning I got the trigger pull down to a respectable 6 pounds. Crown is good from the factory. Cylinders are all the same size at .356 with my pin set. All in all I think I got lucky and found a winner.

I did need to loctite the cap on the barrel. The bolt came loose during a range session. The only other problem was the ejection lever kept coming loose...I tightened it and no more problems.

I like the 929 better than my 627s. Easy shooting and recoil from 9mm is very light. I've also tried WW white box as well and American Eagle 115 grainers and they shoot pretty good.

[BadShot]

I have a batch of 24 short colt brass that I shoot out of my 929 just to see what will happen. They are on their 7th time thru and show no signs of wear yet. I resize them and then check to see if they work in my 627(which they would). I use 3.1 grains of TiteGroup under a 160gr Bayou bullet....

I shot both my 627 and 929 at the local steel match last week. My scores were better with the 627 by about 5%. I'm not used to shooting the 929 yet, so pretty much a toss up..

Skip

Edited August 24, 2015 by BadShot

[Ty Hamby]

Well I got all setup to test my first load. After shooting a full moon into the rubber to settle the gun into the rest I aligned the sights into the targets and pulled the hammer from SA @30yds. Shooting at the top let dot I had 6 of the 8 hanging on the edge of the paper with 2 missing. It looked to be about 6" left and 4 inches high at 30yards. I then attempted to adjust the sights to the center of the group and noticed I did not have enough windage in the rear to bring the sights onto the group just shot. So with the rear sight bottomed out and the windage maxed to the right I shot moved the gun again. This time I was 3 inches high and 2 inches left.

I paused and looked closely at the barrel and discovered it was not clocked all the way to vertical. It is hard to tell in the photo but.......it ain't straight! :(

So I took it out of the ransom rest and shot a final moon through the chrono to get some data.

Starline Short Colt 160gn .358 BBI coated, 2.8gn N310 @ 1.20" OAL (yes I know it is long.)

AV 830.4

SD 5.2

ES 13.6

PF 132.8

Group size 2.1" @30 yds

I called Smith and they sent a pickup tag. Bummed. 32 rounds fired and off to Smith it goes.

Here is a shot of the brass. I do plan on resizing to 9mm specs and not short colt specs. I have no desire to shoot this brass in a .38 special cylinder.

[Gregg K]

My 929 was the same way, that's why I was able to buy it from the original owner at a good price and get one early. My frame wrench comes in handy so that I don't have to mess with S&W and hoping that they get it right when I send it back. Seems like for all the past years when a barrel wasn't indexed right that it was tightened past 12 O'clock and you had to run the rear sight all the way to the left to match up. They must have taken the cheater bar out of the assembly area because now I'm seeing them indexed short of vertical. One of the first things I do is get rid of the factory rear sight so I don't know how it would have worked out as far as elevation.