d_striker Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 This is the list of the 29 GMs as of today. I did not include the "U" who may be GM shooters (like Max)... (Do we need anymore discussion about Production being a "newbie" division? ) 15-07-27-Production.pdf The spirit of Production was to allow a place for entry-level shooters to be competitive without having to spend Limited/Open equipment prices. Production Division was intended to comprise of carry pistols with carry equipment on a somewhat level playing field. Phil Strader wrote that but what does he know right? It may not be a newbie division anymore but it was intended to be. Entry level shooters aren't going to be competitive in this game, period. Regardless of what gun they are using in any division when they are competing with shooters above their skill level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 This is the list of the 29 GMs as of today. I did not include the "U" who may be GM shooters (like Max)... (Do we need anymore discussion about Production being a "newbie" division? ) 15-07-27-Production.pdf The spirit of Production was to allow a place for entry-level shooters to be competitive without having to spend Limited/Open equipment prices. Production Division was intended to comprise of carry pistols with carry equipment on a somewhat level playing field. Phil Strader wrote that but what does he know right? It may not be a newbie division anymore but it was intended to be. I'm fairly confident that Phil wasn't on the board when the division was created -- and that we have no record of the discussion. I'd believe that statement a bit more, if there were multiple board members from the 1999-2000 who were recounting that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I was at the IPSC GA when Production Division was created. It was created as a place for SA/DA guns to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I was at the IPSC GA when Production Division was created. It was created as a place for SA/DA guns to shoot. Here is Vince Pinto's memoirs on IPSC Production published in 2006 PD Philosophy.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 Production is what it is. Does not matter what the initial intention was. Tanfo's were built for production around the rules and that's that. The truth of the matter is at production nationals the winner will be who has the least amount of brain farts and makes the least mistakes. Do those guns give an advantage to the local scrubs, hell yes. But the top guys can shoot shitty guns like a berreta and win (: Has a CZ ever won an USPSA national? Not chitting on CZ it's a great gun, wish I had one. Questionable the most accurate pistol on the market. How come it hasn't won a title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I was at the IPSC GA when Production Division was created. It was created as a place for SA/DA guns to shoot. Here is Vince Pinto's memoirs on IPSC Production published in 2006 PD Philosophy.pdf Interesting read. So did USPSA have a different intent for Production where the "spirit" was in line with Phil's statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) I was at the IPSC GA when Production Division was created. It was created as a place for SA/DA guns to shoot. Here is Vince Pinto's memoirs on IPSC Production published in 2006 PD Philosophy.pdf Interesting read. So did USPSA have a different intent for Production where the "spirit" was in line with Phil's statement? Nothing that I ever found outside of internet folklore...(see post 25 and 27) (I was not present for any of the discussions 15 years ago so I can only go on what I have found in the archives) Edited July 29, 2015 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The internet "folklore" you are referring to was posted on the Uspsa site by the Uspsa president 2 days ago. If that's not legitimate what is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The internet "folklore" you are referring to was posted on the Uspsa site by the Uspsa president 2 days ago. If that's not legitimate what is?See post 27... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The internet "folklore" you are referring to was posted on the Uspsa site by the Uspsa president 2 days ago. If that's not legitimate what is?See post 27... So the president of the association doesn't know what he's talking about because he wasn't on the board at that time? But random people on an internet forum who also weren't on the board know enough to say he is wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The internet "folklore" you are referring to was posted on the Uspsa site by the Uspsa president 2 days ago. If that's not legitimate what is?See post 27... So the president of the association doesn't know what he's talking about because he wasn't on the board at that time? But random people on an internet forum who also weren't on the board know enough to say he is wrong? Nope, all I am saying that the only thing in the USPSA official records is this statement in the 22 January 2000 minutes: "The purpose of production division is to open USPSA to new shooters, manufacturers and sponsors." Not an attack on anyone or anything, just pointing out the only written artifact from the formation of the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdpaz Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The internet "folklore" you are referring to was posted on the Uspsa site by the Uspsa president 2 days ago. If that's not legitimate what is?See post 27... So the president of the association doesn't know what he's talking about because he wasn't on the board at that time? But random people on an internet forum who also weren't on the board know enough to say he is wrong? That same statement could be rearranged as: Random people on an internet forum, including at least one who was around at the time, say they haven't found any evidence of "intent". But the current president of the association who was not involved 15 years ago says he knows the intent without offering any proof and you say he is right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Yes it could be rearranged. My money is on the Uspsa president over random people however you arrange it yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 It's perhaps going to be the most interesting Prod Nats ever for people who like to argue about guns. No doubt and hopefully you'll be able to watch it as it happens at www.liveshots.net The Ladies title will be interesting too; Julie, Randi, Jessie and Tori will be shooting polymer guns, while Sara, Maggie, Maria Gushchina, Christine Burkhalter will all be shooting steel guns. No lady can beat Maria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Maybe if a plastic gun wins the Natty then USPSA will dump "Carry Optics" and go back to production optics, with no weight limit... (I don't even feel bad about bringing that up here. Some men like to watch the world burn.) Love it! I was at the IPSC GA when Production Division was created. It was created as a place for SA/DA guns to shoot. Obviously they were not being influenced by striker fired gun manufacturers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_striker Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The internet "folklore" you are referring to was posted on the Uspsa site by the Uspsa president 2 days ago. If that's not legitimate what is?See post 27... So the president of the association doesn't know what he's talking about because he wasn't on the board at that time? But random people on an internet forum who also weren't on the board know enough to say he is wrong? So if the next elected prez posts a statement on the website stating that the intent of Production was something entirely different than Phil's statement, would you still believe it? I mean, hey, they're the Prez and it's posted on the internet. It must be true, right? Let's use some logic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The internet "folklore" you are referring to was posted on the Uspsa site by the Uspsa president 2 days ago. If that's not legitimate what is?See post 27... So the president of the association doesn't know what he's talking about because he wasn't on the board at that time? But random people on an internet forum who also weren't on the board know enough to say he is wrong? So if the next elected prez posts a statement on the website stating that the intent of Production was something entirely different than Phil's statement, would you still believe it? I mean, hey, they're the Prez and it's posted on the internet. It must be true, right? Let's use some logic here. Really? I'm not using logic because I believe what the president of the association says about a division. I haven't seen any better proof saying that wasn't the intention. So why wouldn't I believe what he says? Abd for your hypotheticak. If 2 presidents say opposite things I'd be confused, president vs. Random forum member? Easy choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) IDPA was created to have people not spend thousands of dollars to compete...PD was created to counter IDPA...original intent... Edited July 29, 2015 by racerba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 This is the list of the 29 GMs as of today. I did not include the "U" who may be GM shooters (like Max)... (Do we need anymore discussion about Production being a "newbie" division? ) 15-07-27-Production.pdf Fun tangent but my original thread drift was to point out there is a real deep pool of competition in this match! It's gonna be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Definition of intent: the act or fact of intending : purpose; especially : the design or purpose to commit a wrongful or criminal act Everyone is familar with the latter, but I think the intent of Production Division was to lure away some of the IDPA guys who wanted to play USPSA but didn't want to spend so much money. Now Production is full of Grand Masters, who didn't want to spend so much money either.......... The original "intent" of IDPA.... IDPA is the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated “real world” self-defense scenarios using practical handguns and holsters that are suitable for self-defense use. Now the power floor is 105, STIs are common, everyone wears spring loaded photographers vests over OWB holsters, 511 pants, etc. Whatever happened to the good old days of running a G19 with 127 +P+ out of a IWB holster under a Hawaian shirt and blue jeans? The intent has changed.... Edited July 29, 2015 by 9x45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 It's perhaps going to be the most interesting Prod Nats ever for people who like to argue about guns. No doubt and hopefully you'll be able to watch it as it happens at www.liveshots.net The Ladies title will be interesting too; Julie, Randi, Jessie and Tori will be shooting polymer guns, while Sara, Maggie, Maria Gushchina, Christine Burkhalter will all be shooting steel guns. No lady can beat Maria ^^^^ This. She is a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 She will be tough to beat that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviSS Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) Definition of intent: the act or fact of intending : purpose; especially : the design or purpose to commit a wrongful or criminal act Everyone is familar with the latter, but I think the intent of Production Division was to lure away some of the IDPA guys who wanted to play USPSA but didn't want to spend so much money. Now Production is full of Grand Masters, who didn't want to spend so much money either.......... The original "intent" of IDPA.... IDPA is the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated real world self-defense scenarios using practical handguns and holsters that are suitable for self-defense use. Now the power floor is 105, STIs are common, everyone wears spring loaded photographers vests over OWB holsters, 511 pants, etc. Whatever happened to the good old days of running a G19 with 127 +P+ out of a IWB holster under a Hawaian shirt and blue jeans? The intent has changed.... The only divisions with pfs that low are revolver and bug. All others are 125 except CDP at 165.But I get what you're saying. Compete with what/how you carry and you are at a disadvantage. Edited July 29, 2015 by LeviSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 More pictures ( and definitions) please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 I hope Maria wins the overall. What would the odd be 50:1 ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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