Is a comp really necessary for a Steel Challenge open gun?

[Nimitz]

when trying to figure out why i shoot rimfire at well over 2 classifications higher then centerfire an analysis of my transition times showed them virtually identical to rimfire

I am getting off topic a bit here in my own thread, but......I think most people will classify higher with rimfire than with their centerfire gun. I think the main difference is low-ready vs draw. Draws are really what set most people apart when you get to the higher levels. Most rimfire shooters can snap a low-ready draw in .6-.8 consistently. Give that same shooter a centerfire gun and most draws are going to be 1.5 or higher depending on the stage (I RO a lot for SC and I frequently check out different shooters' first shot times). Draws really make the difference to get to a higher classification in SC. I shoot with a few M and GM Steel Challenge shooters and where they smoke me (I'm a mid-A) is on their first shot. After that our splits/transitions are almost identical. If you are losing .1-.2 each string to another shooter just on the draws that really adds up across 6 or 8 SC stages. Using the new proposed classification system I would be a GM in Rimfire Pistol Open and still an A in Centerfire Open and I know for a fact that it is my draw that needs work for me to make it to Master.

while I agree that the draw vs low ready is where a lot of the diffrence comes from what is interesting is the 'why' part of it. I think its not unreasonable to say that 'everyone' is faster from the low ready which is the main reason rimfire classification times are so much lower. If the rimfire classification has taken into account the diffrence in time between low ready & draw you should not expect to see a large difference in a person's classification unless there is something else at play. And that something else is that most can't or don't develop an untrafast draw but the low-ready first shot is much easier to learn to do "fast". If your premise is correct I think USPSA may have to relook at the rimfire times to account for much stiffer first shot times for GM level shooting. I don't consider .6-.8 first shot times all that impressive except for maybe Outer Limits & Pendulum but if that's all that is needed to hit 95% scores then things need to change I think. Edited July 15, 2015 by Nimitz

[ZackJones]

i think you keep centerfire and rimfire separate ... if you are a GM in RFPO then you are automatically no lower than an M if you start shooting RFPI, all while still only beinga B class Production shooter ....

I was thinking about this while mowing the yard tonight. I agree with you and would actually prefer that all divisions be classified on their own but that could lead to serious sandbagging. (Not that we steel shooters would do that) .

[Shadyscott999]

You guys still chasing "flat"? lol Unless it is a makeup shot in SC, why? You don't even have splits. It's all about the draw, transitions and accuracy.

Flat doesn't even matter in uspsa all that much. You can win nationals shooting .17 splits

I know gear is fun to play with, but if you want to get better, focus on the things that matter.

[danjordan78]

I don't think the first shot time is the only factor between holster draws and low ready. Missing your grip from a draw on a run or two per stage can also lead to either misses or the need to fix your grip in order to go faster after that.

From a low ready you always have the proper grip from the start on every run. I think that plays a bigger part than people think or stop to consider.

[ToddKS]

You guys still chasing "flat"? lol Unless it is a makeup shot in SC, why? You don't even have splits. It's all about the draw, transitions and accuracy.

Flat doesn't even matter in uspsa all that much. You can win nationals shooting .17 splits

I know gear is fun to play with, but if you want to get better, focus on the things that matter.

We are focused on the things that matter...comps, springs, and reloading the perfect bunny fart load. [emoji2]

[Bob Hostetter]

I have built and ran several different types of steel guns. All ran a dot, most ran a conventional style comp, another had no comp or porting, and another ran a Hybrid barrel. I liked the Hybrid barrel setup the best.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Bob Hostetter

[scottlep]

I don't think the first shot time is the only factor between holster draws and low ready. Missing your grip from a draw on a run or two per stage can also lead to either misses or the need to fix your grip in order to go faster after that.

From a low ready you always have the proper grip from the start on every run. I think that plays a bigger part than people think or stop to consider.

^^^This is more of what I meant about the differences between low-ready and holster draw. There are many more technical aspects that need to work out perfectly together for a fast draw and fast first shot when drawing from a holster. This is true especially in Steel Challenge, but also in fast USPSA stages.

I also agree with ShadyScott999 that too many people get caught up in "flat" and the whole equipment race. That is kind of my whole point of testing and shooting the bull barrel in the open gun. By removing weight from the front end I feel that I can now draw faster and transition faster which means I can get to each plate faster which gives me a minuscule amount more time to focus on letting the dot settle and accurately hitting the plate. But to each his own.

Edited July 16, 2015 by scottlep

[P.E. Kelley]

I think it's more important for matches like ISSA than SC. You run in to some ISSA stages where there may be a thin band of plates in the same horizontal plane. With a really flat gun you can transition from plate to plate and shoot more quickly. For some loads it sounds like some folks are getting flat enough without a comp.

My centerfire and rimfire open steel handguns all have comps on them. My rimfire steel rifle doesn't. In the three matches I shoot regularly, all of the top open shooters have comps on their handguns. Centerfire and rimfire.

Except for the last two matches I shot with your local crew...the guy who won Open used a Limited gun and a Production gun.

Keep in mind that at a major steel championship I could not get away with that...(I don't think)

Edited July 16, 2015 by P.E. Kelley

[Nimitz]

I do think a flat shooting gun has value although the amount of value may be debatable depending on your skill level The way I've heard it explained in layman's terms is that a comp enables a fast shooter to shoot faster. Part of that being if the gun is flat then on a relative basis as you move from plate to plate there is just horizontal movement vice what I'll call kind of a sinusoidal movement has you have to get the gun back 'down' on target each time. that may not seem like much but having to do that 5 times on a single run can easily be .1 - .2 secs which is huge over 8 stages.

if your current 8-stage match time is 125 secs then this probably won't mean much to you but if you're currently shooting in the low 90s and looking to break into the 80s then every .1 sec matters ...

[Nimitz]

hey Zack ... you've got mail ....

[blacklab]

Nimitz, even if your not a extremely fast shooter wouldn't a comp. still help you get on target faster? If there is little muzzle rise and the shooter only has to move horizontal, even a slower shooter would see a difference, right? I would think not having to get the gun back down should benefit everyone. What am I missing?

Edited July 17, 2015 by blacklab

[Nimitz]

I agree completely. My comment was more to the point that for shooters who have major fundamental shooting issues, how flat their gun is is really not something they need to be worrying about. It's like the USPSA guy who worries about getting his splits down from .2 to .15 but has such poor movement skills that he is literally wasting a second or more on every transition ... shaving .05 secs off his splits is a waste of time.

I'm gonna say that if you're currently shooting something like Roundabout around 2 secs/run then you should be looking for every advantage you can get. Much slower then that and you'll see bigger gains from learning better techniques. remember, flatness has as much to do with your grip as anything else .... the best compliment I've ever received in the entire 3 years I've been shooting was coming off the final stage at the US Steel nationals last year with my Production Shadow and a guy on my squad came up to me and said " .... it that a Shadow? Boy, that gun shoots really flat" ...... uh, yes it does ...

Now, that being said, I wouldn't get a steel gun that didn't have a comp on it regardless of whether I had the current ability to exploit it. My theory has always been to buy the very best equipment you can possibly afford so that you can't reasonably expect to outshoot it for a very long time

[ZackJones]

My theory has always been to buy the very best equipment you can possibly afford so that you can't reasonably expect to outshoot it for a very long time

In that case I should just buy a sling-shot and put a C-more on it .

[Nimitz]

I'm looking forward to them adding a shotgun side match the US Steel nationals necxt year so I can bring my Benelli M2 racegun ....

[Shmella]

heres my .02 on light guns/light loads/ my performance being affected my it. I have Jareds comp on my STI (titanium/not heavy) and I just shot it for the first time in steelchallenge. .. With major pf loads.

I haven't played around much with minor loads but in my testing with this gun, the major loads were easier to track the dot so I stuck with it.

Granted it was my first Time Shooting SC open, I don't Think I would do any better with minor loads vs major or if the front of my gun was any lighter than it is now.

[Nimitz]

a lot of people who only shoot SC occasionally just use their major PF USPSA open gun since they don't want to fiddle around with things for something they only occasionally do. However, if you ever get serious about SC you'll head in the direction of a dedicated steel gun very quickly and set it up to take advantage of all the possible ways to reduce recoil.

You are smart to just focus on technique now. There will be plenty of time to invest $1,000+ in a dedicated steel gun down the road ....

Edited July 19, 2015 by Nimitz

[danjordan78]

So KC Eusebio told me today he thinks a comp is definitely necessary and he has them on both his rimfire and centerfire guns.

Think I will take his word for it!

[echotango]

having a steel gun being built and it will have a comp. I think they make a diff regardless of power factor. It just needs to be the right comp.

Edited July 20, 2015 by echotango

[RaylanGivens]

So KC Eusebio told me today he thinks a comp is definitely necessary and he has them on both his rimfire and centerfire guns.

Think I will take his word for it!

Did KC mention what kind of compensator he uses on his rimfire pistol?

I'm currently shooting a Ruger 22/45 in RFPI and thinking about building a rimfire Open gun... Plan to get a Ruger 22/45 with a short threaded barrel... Rather have a comp than another inch of steel barrel...

[echotango]

I put an Allchin comp on my 22/45. It actually made it dip down so I drilled 1/4" holes on the sides of the ports and now it doesn't move.

Edited July 20, 2015 by echotango

[Nimitz]

My buckmark weighs 24 ozs empty so I'm not looking to lighten it any more and I've shot Buckmarks with and without comps and I can tell the difference which is enough for me. May not be the same for everyone and there's probbaly no one right answer ... just like for sevral stages there is more then one way to shoot it .....

Edited July 20, 2015 by Nimitz

[photoracer]

I have experimented with various comps on rimfires and pretty much without exception I end up back using the Allchin comps. They just work better for me even compared to putting a steel comp on the end of the barrel to resist muzzle flip. Tried a few of those.

As for centerfire I actually have 2 radically different open guns. One STI in 9x23mm w/Schuemann comped barrel and a 90 degree CCG mounted C-More and a Glock 34 w/Lone Wolf ported barrel and a slide ride Trijicon RMR. The STI doesn't even like to run with anything under 160 PF while the Glock is happy as a clam with NATO spec +P 124g 9x19. And the 34 shoots flatter with that combo than the Limited combo which is a OEM 34 barrel, LW stainless slide, DP sights, shooting 145 PF 147g ammo. Tried lighter ammo and the Glock Limited seems to have a better recoil moment with slower heavier ammo verses faster (or even slower) 115g-124g 9mm.

[photoracer]

24 oz is pretty light for an Open Buckmark (both my open Buckmark and my new open FrankenRuger weigh 27-28 oz) although my Limited Buckmark weighs in at 20 oz with a TS 7.25" alloy barrel.

2 days after having cataract surgery and a new lens put in my dominant right eye I set a personal best in my club's bowling pin match of 2.56s (previous best was 2.70s), but I was also using my new FrankenRuger pistol instead of my Buckmark. Might be a little of both.

[photoracer]

Its the shooter not the gun. At the first Fredericksburg SC match in July Todd Jarrett shooting a Limited gun kicked everybodys butt except some of us better rimfire shooters and he did not lose by much either.

[ZackJones]

I'm currently shooting a Ruger 22/45 in RFPI and thinking about building a rimfire Open gun... Plan to get a Ruger 22/45 with a short threaded barrel... Rather have a comp than another inch of steel barrel...

I have the TandemKross comp on my 22/45 and 10/22. I like 'em.