Production 10rnds?

[Jim Watson]

I don't remember the year that Production (and Limited 10) came along, but it was well after the AWB 1994.

There were several years when we were being told that there were plenty of full capacity magazines available in inventory and on the secondary market. When the price of a double stack magazine reached $100 and stacks of "repair parts" started showing up on match vendors' tables, HQ apparently rethought their position. I was rather surprised that some BATman did not read the gunzines and set up a sting on LE Only magazines and "repair parts."

[gng4life]

Yes, a Production Optics division would be fun, lol.

It just may happen. I didn't think it would since it's been very unpopular with shooters on this forum and ones I talk to at the range. However, it was on the BOD meeting agenda to have the rules committee look into this and report back to the BOD about it. We'll see if it gains any traction. I'm not in favor of it but it would give me an excuse to buy another gun

Production came about during the AWB so since there was a 10 round limit on everything, it used that standard. After the sunset, guess there was no need to change it and it helps keep a level playing field for newer shooters. Since there is a really wide array of capacities for Production type guns, this makes sense and helps keep it more "equal" when it comes to gear.

[DumKraken]

I'm beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I can just imagine how it would suck and be the only state not able to shoot due to AWB which this division would fall into. I do understand the standpoint of it being only 10 rnds coz not all guns are design to hold more than that.

But production for new shooters? Majority of the new shooters I have shot with or met before were using a high cap 9 pistol. They probably better off shooting Lim Minor than production. I have nothing against production, I just think that most new shooters will only have 2 or 3 mags, lets say G17, which is pretty good enough, leaning more towards the BUDGET NEW SHOOTERS.

[JAFO]

Most clubs will recommend Limited Minor for a brand new shooter with only a few mags. The point is to try the game, not to be competitive on day 1.

[cnote]

Most clubs will recommend Limited Minor for a brand new shooter with only a few mags. The point is to try the game, not to be competitive on day 1.

+1

play safely, and get a feel for what you may like

[DumKraken]

Most clubs will recommend Limited Minor for a brand new shooter with only a few mags. The point is to try the game, not to be competitive on day 1.

+1

Exactly what I tell new shooters who wants to try the game, shoot what you have and get a feel of the game. Be safe and not to race with other seasoned shooters.

Edited May 15, 2015 by DumKraken

[gng4life]

... I thought production division was put in place prior to the gun ban/mag cap restrictions where there was no limit to topping off mag and then was later change to a max of 10...

Oh no...not by a long shot. Heck, "Limited" division wasn't officially adopted until 1995 and by that time, the AWB was already in effect.

[ChuckS]

The year was 2000. I have a membership card dated 1/7/2000 showing only Open and Limited. I have a card dated 12/13/00 showing O/L/L-10/P/Rev. The 14th edition of the rules that included the Production Division were approved by an email meeting on 27 Mar 2000.

Edited May 16, 2015 by ChuckS

[BritinUSA]

USPSA was in 2000, IPSC created the division in 1999, at the World Shoot in Cebu. The original proposal was in two parts, the first was the introduction of the division and the second motion was to limit capacity to 10 rounds. The first motion passed but not the second, so for a few years there was no restriction on capacity, they now have a 15 round limit.

[sundevil827]

What I don't understand is why they do not have a Production Major Class so that those who run .40 and .45 can be competitive against those who run 9.

I wasn't aware that people who ran .40 or .45 were interested in being competitive against those who run 9 in Production. I always thought L-10 at most club, and sectional level matches was reserved for people who wanted to win plaques with as little competition as possible. I'm sure that was not always the case, but the point is it's not a popular division, and I can't see blending it into Production is going to make it any more popular.

Looking at the overwhelming popularity of L-10 (that's sarcasm) using A5 as a barometer, as of 5/15, they have 251 people signed up, 6 of them shooting L-10.

I'd sincerely hope that USPSA would consider a few other changes before adding divisions that don't appeal to many folks.

[sfinney]

L-10 was to cater to states that have 10 round laws, for those that wanted to shoot Limited type guns.

Production, while it fits that broad description also, was always in my mind restricted to 10 so ANY production gun could be competitive... any caliber, and capacity, whether it held 10, or 19, would be mandated 10, and not be a capacity war ( where everyone ended up all shooting the same gun because it had the highest capacity). Any guy off the street with brand X pistol would be at least theoretically on the same playing field capacity wise.

Of course we now have whole 'nuther kind of arms race in Production.

[himurax13]

L-10 was to cater to states that have 10 round laws, for those that wanted to shoot Limited type guns.

Production, while it fits that broad description also, was always in my mind restricted to 10 so ANY production gun could be competitive... any caliber, and capacity, whether it held 10, or 19, would be mandated 10, and not be a capacity war ( where everyone ended up all shooting the same gun because it had the highest capacity). Any guy off the street with brand X pistol would be at least theoretically on the same playing field capacity wise.

Of course we now have whole 'nuther kind of arms race in Production.

Well I was thinking in regards to those who use duty type guns, not those who are running Tanfoglios and the like. It is much easier to run a Glock 17 fast as apposed to something like an XD45.

[sfinney]

An XD45 in minor would pretty soft... but with full power ammo, yes you are right,

[Craig N]

My G22 with 130PF loads would be a great production gun. The slightly larger holes of .40 would be in my favor.

To bad it is a carry gun with laser grips.

I've had it cut both ways using my G35. I've quite a few bigger bullet break the scoring ring on good targets and no shoots alike LOL.

[himurax13]

Well shooting .45 with a low minor PF would take some serious creampuff loads and testing of various recoil springs for proper function. I tried doing that with .40 and it just felt all wrong.

[smiley1]

I live on Canada where ten round mags are our legal limit. Can't say I like the government telling me how many rounds I can have in my gun is cool but we sure can do mag changes. Just think of Production as "The mag change division".

[ES13Raven]

Production Division was introduced into USPSA to get IDPA shooters into the game.

I read this somewhere as well. IDPA was created to have an even playing field, and not an equipment race. IDPA became very popular. Production was introduced to get those shooters back.

Edited May 19, 2015 by ES13Raven

[sfinney]

Yeah, that's worked out well.

[ChuckS]

Production Division was introduced into USPSA to get IDPA shooters into the game.

Actually, Old One, IPSC went first with Production (started work in 1997 and launched in 1999) and USPSA closely followed suit in 2000. The only thing in writing that I found so far in a couple dumpster dives in the BOD minutes archives about purpose or intent of Production was in the 22 Jan 2000 minutes:

The purpose of production division is to open USPSA to new shooters, manufacturers and sponsors.

That's pretty much it. But it did give a nice entry point for IDPA folks.

If you find Vince Pinto rants entertaining, here is his stance on IPSC Production published in 2006

PD Philosophy.pdf

Later,

Chuck

[gng4life]

Good info Chuck - as always!