Make ready....

[JAFO]

After the RO gives the "make ready" command, all bets are off. An unloaded gun with a cocked hammer in the holster, a gun with a magazine in it, or a fully loaded gun is 100% legal...

Well, if you put a loaded magazine in the firearm, it is loaded (Loaded firearm - A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, OR having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.) If the firearm is loaded, then you can't have it in your holster without the safety being applied (8.5.2.1 - For a single action self-loader the safety must be applied.) In this situation, I can see that this would be a DQ according to 10.5.11. In the case of the OP, I would say that is not a DQ'able offense and I hope the OP informs the RO about it so they can learn from it.

"Make Ready" is not over until the competitor assumes the start position. If I put a mag in my gun, then holster it, (no round in the chamber, no hammer cocked), you're telling me that it's a DQ? You're crazy! You're going to DQ someone for a mag in a gun, even if the gun is not chambered and cocked, and they are under the supervision of the RO the entire time? There are rules and then there is idiocy. I'm fairly sure that is NOT how the rule is meant to be interpreted. The definition of "loaded" is written that way to prevent people from having guns with a magazine in them, (even with dummy rounds), when NOT attempting a COF. That covers walking around and in safety areas.

I think you missed the part in red above. Loaded, uncocked SAO gun in a holster = no problem. Loaded, cocked SAO gun in a holster with no safety applied = DQ.

[frag316]

<snip>

I still fail to see the big issue here.

If the guy walks up and racks the slide and a round falls out, it's a DQ for having a loaded gun when he's not supposed to.

If the guy walks up, thumbs back the hammer, then takes what he thinks is a dead chamber sight picture--meaning he's pointing the gun in a safe direction, because anything else would get him DQ'd--and pulls the trigger and gets a bang, he gets a DQ for having a loaded gun when he's not supposed to (or a couple of other items, but you can only DQ a guy once).

Is it optimal? No. Is it, strictly speaking, safe gun handling? No. Is it inherently unsafe? Probably not. It's unpleasantly surprising, but they guy handled the gun in an otherwise safe manner, except for verifying the gun was unloaded every time he picked it up. It really means he violated a safety rule somewhere else first and forgot about it.

I think this is not as big of an issue as it's made to be here.

You're kidding, naturally. Of course it's unsafe. That's why it's an AD and a DQ, because it's unsafe. (Not because "someone didn't get hurt - this time" but because it's an unsafe action.)

I am not. The act, taken in isolation, is not inherently unsafe, because the other safety rules obviate the negative affects of the guy violating the rule of having a loaded chamber. THAT was the unsafe part. Thumbing back the hammer and pointing the gun in a safe direction and taking a shot is not the unsafe act. The AD was a direct result of violating having a loaded gun, NOT of taking what the competitor thought was an unloaded sight picture. That's the contributing factor.

[Parallax3D]

I think you missed the part in red above. Loaded, uncocked SAO gun in a holster = no problem. Loaded, cocked SAO gun in a holster with no safety applied = DQ.

I think you missed the part of the OP's post where he had an ULOADED gun, and cocked the hammer while it was still in the holster, and the RO warned him. That's what this entire thread was about, and it's NOT a DQ, or even something you can warn the shooter about.

I think YOU missed where the definition of loaded does not specifiy cocked or not.

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

Show me where it says it matters if it's not cocked. It doesn't matter to ME if it's not cocked during the "make ready", and I would not DQ someone for having a mag in the gun without it being cocked at that time if it's not. I would make them fix it, because it is not inherently unsafe, (you're making ready to shoot anyway!), but that's not the rule. Like I said, I think definition is intended to cover things like live ammo or snap caps in a mag or gun OUTSIDE the COF.

[JAFO]

I think you missed the part of the OP's post where he had an ULOADED gun, and cocked the hammer while it was still in the holster, and the RO warned him. That's what this entire thread was about, and it's NOT a DQ, or even something you can warn the shooter about.

I think YOU missed where the definition of loaded does not specifiy cocked or not.

Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

Show me where it says it matters if it's not cocked. It doesn't matter to ME if it's not cocked during the "make ready", and I would not DQ someone for having a mag in the gun without it being cocked at that time if it's not. I would make them fix it, because it is not inherently unsafe, (you're making ready to shoot anyway!), but that's not the rule. Like I said, I think definition is intended to cover things like live ammo or snap caps in a mag or gun OUTSIDE the COF.

First, both gng4life and I are agreeing with you that in the OP's case, with an unloaded holstered firearm, there is no problem. No DQ. No real cause for a warning either, as far as I can see. The point that I thought gng4life was trying to make was that it would make a difference if the gun was loaded.

You are correct in that the definition of loaded does not mention cocked or not, but when you are talking about a loaded & cocked firearm in a holster without the safety applied, it does matter per 10.5.11 (emphasis mine):

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

All these conditions apply the entire time the handgun is in the holster. See 8.1.2.4

Once you have a loaded semi-auto in the holster, either the hammer must be down or the safety must be applied. The last statement enforces this rule even after the act of holstering. If you load your SAO pistol, engage the safety and holster, then flick the safety off, you have violated 10.5.11.

[ChuckS]

Has anybody seen a stage with a loaded gun, empty chamber, holstered start? I think we had one a few weeks ago

eta: emphasis on think

Edited May 6, 2015 by ChuckS

[OUshooter]

Has anybody seen a stage with a loaded gun, empty chamber, holstered start? I think we had one a few weeks ago

eta: emphasis on think

Wait so you had a modern semi auto pistol with a full magazine inserted, but no round in the pipe----while holstered?

1. How would this apply when revos are involved?
2. Why the holy hell would anyone have this in their stage?

If I'm carrying a gun for SD then you can bet your ass it's loaded----mag and chamber. I realize our sport is a game and doesn't mimic real life, but that is just stupid.

[ChuckS]

Has anybody seen a stage with a loaded gun, empty chamber, holstered start? I think we had one a few weeks ago

eta: emphasis on think

Wait so you had a modern semi auto pistol with a full magazine inserted, but no round in the pipe----while holstered?

1. How would this apply when revos are involved?
2. Why the holy hell would anyone have this in their stage?

If I'm carrying a gun for SD then you can bet your ass it's loaded----mag and chamber. I realize our sport is a game and doesn't mimic real life, but that is just stupid.

We have quite a few folks who shoot our GAME internationally. Unloaded starts are fairly common in IPSC and we usually have one or two every week. After some thought, this stage was probably one a weekend when most of the regular stage design staff were out of town at a major match and things got a bit confused,

But, thanks for your kind thoughts...

[mgardner]

Has anybody seen a stage with a loaded gun, empty chamber, holstered start? I think we had one a few weeks ago

eta: emphasis on think

Wait so you had a modern semi auto pistol with a full magazine inserted, but no round in the pipe----while holstered?

• How would this apply when revos are involved?
• Why the holy hell would anyone have this in their stage?

If I'm carrying a gun for SD then you can bet your ass it's loaded----mag and chamber. I realize our sport is a game and doesn't mimic real life, but that is just stupid.

Condition 3 is a real life thing if you are an Israeli. From what I remember that's how they carry unless there's an immediate threat.

[teros135]

Condition 3 is Jeff Cooper's term for loaded mag in gun, chamber empty. It refers mainly to the 1911 platform and is presumably safer than Condition 1 (cocked/locked). You draw the gun and simultaneously rack the slide to chamber a round. I've seen people do this in a class (some time ago), and for a while I didn't know they were doing it because they were so fast and fluid. Not stupid at all.

[frag316]

Condition 3 is Jeff Cooper's term for loaded mag in gun, chamber empty. It refers mainly to the 1911 platform and is presumably safer than Condition 1 (cocked/locked). You draw the gun and simultaneously rack the slide to chamber a round. I've seen people do this in a class (some time ago), and for a while I didn't know they were doing it because they were so fast and fluid. Not stupid at all.

Actually, for defensive uses, this is completely stupid.

The term for this practice is currently "Israeli carry."

The reason it's completely stupid is two-fold:

1) The practice hinges solely around the practitioner's ability to hit the draw every single time. The slightest bobble will render the gun useless to the wielder until they can unscrew whatever condition failing to complete the drawstroke left the gun.

2) This is part of the first--the practice assumes the wielder will have both hands free. In many cases, the defensive gun owner will have to fend off an attacker or move objects around him/herself with the non-gun hand. It also assumes no injuries to the non-gun hand. You can't make your draw and chamber doing so.

Putting it this way--the defensive gun user who relies on this technique has the confidence to believe they can hit this draw flawlessly every single time they have to present the gun, but lacks the confidence to carry a completely safe gun with a round chambered.

How the hell does that even compute?

(PS--the practice is no longer limited to the 1911 series. Many of the people who practice this now are carrying polymer-framed GLOCKM&PXDFNS-style guns.)

Edited May 7, 2015 by frag316

[teros135]

We hear you - you think it's "completely stupid". Thanks for your input.

Others may disagree. The interested reader can Google "condition 3 carry" and read others' takes on this topic.

[SonOfSpartans]

In 2 Gun competition the pistol is in condition 3 on starts sometimes. You may be going prone to shoot the rifle with a pistol on. Most people would not want a hot pistol pointed up range even if it is holstered.

Absolutes are illusive things

[BillD]

Hmm, was anyone talking about 2 gun?

Edited May 7, 2015 by BillD

[frag316]

We hear you - you think it's "completely stupid". Thanks for your input.

Others may disagree. The interested reader can Google "condition 3 carry" and read others' takes on this topic.

So, it's ok for you to declare it "not stupid at all," but if I take a diametrically opposed position, I get sarcasm?

Huh.

A number of highly-qualified and respected instructors think it's stupid. And the cold logic I put at the end of my post should drive that final nail into the coffin.

But go on with your bad self. I'm sure you're the man.

[SonOfSpartans]

Hmm, was anyone talking about 2 gun?

Was anyone talking about actual duty carry or CC?

Nope. Games and rules are closer than Israeli carry.

I'm out.

[ima45dv8]

Seems like a good time for a reminder...

Attitude
Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.
No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.
Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable.

Any further posts in this thread should bear the above in mind.

If you can't play nice...play somewhere else.

The Mod Squad

[mrpredictable]

If a shooter is found with a cocked gun outside of the safety area or firing line it's not a DQ, RO just goes with shooter and follows the unload show clear process. I don't see how cocking a holstered gun at the firing line with an RO could be considered a DQ.

On the topix of unloaded, mag inserted starts. It's a game, just like weird start positions it forces the shooter to think and gun handling skills are not a bad thing.

[motosapiens]

The rules quoted are all applicable. It is not a DQ as described. BUT in the RO's defense how does he KNOW your gun is unloaded when you walk up to the line? Strange things happen when guns are involved sometimes. What if somebody had been practicing the day before and not cleared the gun? BOOM and DQ! I always clear my gun at make ready and never pull the trigger unless I do . RO incorrect in his opinion but he may have prevented a DQ. Who knows? I would change your routine regardless of this incident

good points here. IMHO, both RO and competitor are doing it wrong. I personally have a hard time pulling the trigger on any gun unless it is going to go bang, or I have *just* checked that the chamber is empty so I know it won't go bang. I would recommend racking the slide to cock the hammer for a dryfire pull, or at least pulling the gun out of the holster slightly to cock the hammer and apply the safety, then reholster.

[fuentesd99]

Just to be clear on something, after I cocked the hammer I did put the safety on before I drew the gun out of the holster. But I haven't done this since last year.

[Pepelepew]

Just to be clear on something, after I cocked the hammer I did put the safety on before I drew the gun out of the holster. But I haven't done this since last year.

In dry fire practice, I would do the same. One day, I thought I might be creating a habit that could get me in trouble at the range. Now, I only cock the hammer in dry fire practice when drawn and pointing in a safe direction.